[WEC] Glickenhaus Hypercar

[S griffin]

I can understand where the organisers are coming from, but when the top class entries hasn’t exactly gone in double figures, it seems it might not be the best idea….

[Pandamasque]

I struggle to see the motivation behind this shot in the foot. Without Glickenhaus there'll be 3 cars in the top class in the first part of the season, one of which literally cannot compete for longer than a stint. And that's the best case scenario. There's a good chance Peugeot aren't ready by Le Mans, which means it's #7 vs #8 all the way. Why should I renew my subscription for 2022?

[gert]

I think the motivation is clear.

On one hand there is a team cherry-picking the events they like (the US races, Le Mans, Monza. Any others?) and on the other hand there are teams waiting to join an already oversubscribed grid.

The top class "problem" will be solved come 2023, come what may.


So ...

[SnoodyMcFlude]

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect that teams compete in the rest of the championship too. People are complaining about it only being a 3 car battle, but that's been the case for most races this year and is exactly what they're looking to balance out for next season. It's a risk which might not pay off for Le Mans, but I suppose they feel it's worth it for this one year.

[rich07]

Given the grid is already oversubscribed for next year I don’t see why Glickenhaus should be able to cherry pick what races they want to do. It’s unfair to those who want to do a full season. It’d be nice to see another Hypercar entry but not at the expense of another team wanting a full season entry regardless of class. I’m with the WEC on this one.

[bella]

Originally Posted by rich07

Given the grid is already oversubscribed for next year I don’t see why Glickenhaus should be able to cherry pick what races they want to do. It’s unfair to those who want to do a full season. It’d be nice to see another Hypercar entry but not at the expense of another team wanting a full season entry regardless of class. I’m with the WEC on this one.

yeah, exactly this and the other posts expressing the same thing. there's a lot of teams and gentleman drivers for whom entering the wec would be a really big opportunity. i respect everything glickenhaus have done to produce a car capable of running in the hypercar class, especially finishing at le mans but they no longer have the leverege to be able to pick and choose their events.

i'd heard the majority of their race support team had moved on. anyone know if that's the case?

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by rich07

Given the grid is already oversubscribed for next year I don’t see why Glickenhaus should be able to cherry pick what races they want to do. It’s unfair to those who want to do a full season. It’d be nice to see another Hypercar entry but not at the expense of another team wanting a full season entry regardless of class. I’m with the WEC on this one.

It sets a bit of a precedent doesn't it too if they let Glick cherry pick. They are too up front as a team, they should just lie like many other teams have done about their intention to run a full championship.

[Aysedasi]

I have to say I'm truly disappointed that the Glicks didn't commit to the full season and appear to have no intention of doing so. As I intend to be at LM next year I really wanted to see them there. But, it's a championship and I have to agree that teams should be required to participate in the whole championship. I understand the whole BOP thing (well, generally, anyway) but with everything that is happening for 2023 and beyond, basing decisions on getting favourable BOP from the ACO is somewhat optimistic.

[Pandamasque]

Let me get this straight, you're essentially saying that when the 2 Peugeots are ready to join around about June they should be turned away, right? Because if they aren't turned away, that means losing 2 precious Orecas (out of like 157). Can't let them cherry pick just because they're French!

Originally Posted by gert

I think the motivation is clear.

On one hand there is a team cherry-picking the events they like (the US races, Le Mans, Monza. Any others?) and on the other hand there are teams waiting to join an already oversubscribed grid.

Those teams aren't drawing the fans. One can watch the Oreca 07 Challenge for free in ELMS.

Originally Posted by SnoodyMcFlude

People are complaining about it only being a 3 car battle

It's a 2 car battle that isn't even a battle. Extra cars in LMH, depending on competitiveness, either produce racing with the Toyotas or racing with the Alpine for the best of the rest. With things as they are, there's a team orders parade at the front and the Alpine in 3rd only hoping for the two Toyotas to break down. Not much of a race, is it?

[SnoodyMcFlude]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

It's a 2 car battle that isn't even a battle. Extra cars in LMH, depending on competitiveness, either produce racing with the Toyotas or racing with the Alpine for the best of the rest. With things as they are, there's a team orders parade at the front and the Alpine in 3rd only hoping for the two Toyotas to break down. Not much of a race, is it?

Right, but to be brutal, it's not like the other two cars brought much which could rival the Toyota either, despite performing pretty well. Okay so a chunk of that is down to EOT/BOP or whatever you want to call it, but you can't pretend like having SCG on the grid is suddenly going to mean we have a race which doesn't involve hoping the Toyota breaks. Whereas if those spots are given to the lower classes there is actually the chance that it will increase the competition, and for the whole season rather than just the big race.

I'm sorry to say but it just makes sense from the ACO's pov, even if most of us do want to see Glickenhaus stick it to the big boys again.

[ascarracinguk]

Its an interesting and on the face baffling move by the ACO....I understand the reasons given, but its a reason full of holes.

...Corvette have cherry picked Sebring and Le Mans over the last decade, as have Porsche America, ENZO, Nissan,

...Plenty of LMDh teams will be doing the same too...

...slippery slope full of holes to fall through. It does seem like Glick has been singled out here a bit.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Let me get this straight, you're essentially saying that when the 2 Peugeots are ready to join around about June they should be turned away, right? Because if they aren't turned away, that means losing 2 precious Orecas (out of like 157). Can't let them cherry pick just because they're French!

Of course Peugeot will be able to join when they please, how could you question such a thing?

Porsche seems to think that the BOP between lmdh and hypercar will be fine even with the 2 vs 4 wheel drive thing. In this article the head of porsche motorsport Laudenbach says that if the people involved decide to be honest and fair bop can work. So is it possible the bop isn't being fairly administered currently?

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...mh-lmdh-class/


Also, on the Glick front, I think the solution to make both parties happy is to allow non-championship cars to join the races. We regularly see ELMS teams run at Spa before Le Mans, that hasn't been an issue previously. If there is space at the track, why not let in other cars? Say they aren't eligible for points, but let them run! I think there would be plenty of room on track at Sebring and Spa for a couple more top class cars.

[SnoodyMcFlude]

Originally Posted by joeb

Also, on the Glick front, I think the solution to make both parties happy is to allow non-championship cars to join the races. We regularly see ELMS teams run at Spa before Le Mans, that hasn't been an issue previously. If there is space at the track, why not let in other cars? Say they aren't eligible for points, but let them run! I think there would be plenty of room on track at Sebring and Spa for a couple more top class cars.

Think that will quickly get shouted down by the manufacturers doing the whole season. E.g imagine if a non-championship car takes out a Toyota, they'd be fuming. I know it still happens in some championships, just can't see that flying in WEC...but then I don't really know much about anything, so who knows

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Its an interesting and on the face baffling move by the ACO....I understand the reasons given, but its a reason full of holes.

...Corvette have cherry picked Sebring and Le Mans over the last decade, as have Porsche America, ENZO, Nissan,

...Plenty of LMDh teams will be doing the same too...

...slippery slope full of holes to fall through. It does seem like Glick has been singled out here a bit.

In fairness, Corvette and Porsche NA have been full time IMSA teams. A lot of the field at LM are also ELMS teams that mostly run that series vs WEC.


Glickenhaus has few options here, as they can't run in IMSA (no LMH/LMDH class currently, and doesn't meet IMSA's OEM/manufacturer requirements, which are BS but I digress), or ELMS (no LMH/LMDH class, top class is LMP2), and that leaves the WEC. And WEC teams get priority on entry for LM if they commit for the full season. Then full season IMSA/ELMS/AsLMS teams, then partial season entries/LM only entries. Things can be helped there if the ACO expand the pit lane at LM like the envision in a couple of years, but I doubt that their entry priorities will change much.


I don't agree with much of the ACO's or IMSA's treatment of Glickenhaus, but I find it hard to argue with the ACO's reasoning here. Also, running a full season entry--even if only supporting a customer team--can help with the BOP situation.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Pandamesque

Those teams aren't drawing the fans.

Dare I say it, Glickenhaus weren't exactly packing in the fans either - not that we'll ever know, but I doubt the 007s brought a significant number of new fans for the ACO to expl- errr, engage with. If that was the case, then the ACO's tone would be more conciliatory, because SCG would matter more to their bottom line.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't agree with much of the ACO's or IMSA's treatment of Glickenhaus, but I find it hard to argue with the ACO's reasoning here. Also, running a full season entry--even if only supporting a customer team--can help with the BOP situation.

I suspect there's a bit of chicken and egg here. The ACO may be more amenable to Glickenhaus's BoP concerns if they were to commit to the season. However, Jim would only commit if he had assurances that the BoP would be looked at first.

Seeing as the ACO hold the cards, they get their way. The potential loss of an 007 LMH or two doesn't make a significant enough difference to how 2022 WEC will likely pan out for the ACO to change their mind.

Roll on 2023...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

Of course Peugeot will be able to join when they please, how could you question such a thing?

I don't think there is a problem here. Peugeot join when ready and then compete in every round from then on.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don't think there is a problem here. Peugeot join when ready and then compete in every round from then on.

That’s an assumption….given it’s a pretty radical design, the last 2 cars of this sort were the delta wing and Nissan…..

I can’t help feel that the ACO have never really got behind Glick. Right from the start of the Hypercar rules, Glick has largely been left out of press releases, photo shoots etc etc etc….

…but hey, that’s the ACO these days, the privateers seem to be at the back of their mind…as soon as manufacturers come along the ACO dump the little guy and chase the money.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Seeing as the ACO hold the cards, they get their way. The potential loss of an 007 LMH or two doesn't make a significant enough difference to how 2022 WEC will likely pan out for the ACO to change their mind.

Roll on 2023...

Perhaps it doesn't make a difference to how 2022 plays out for the series, but does it matter to the fans? Compare the discussions to all other WEC races this year to the last two in Bahrain. Perhaps we still would have had limited discussions if Glick was there, but i suspect some of us would have followed their progress to see if they could close the gap.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by joeb

Perhaps it doesn't make a difference to how 2022 plays out for the series, but does it matter to the fans? Compare the discussions to all other WEC races this year to the last two in Bahrain. Perhaps we still would have had limited discussions if Glick was there, but i suspect some of us would have followed their progress to see if they could close the gap.

While I'm sure that would be true, some of us (who are already relatively dedicated fans) aren't worth enough to the ACO to risk losing face over this in the eyes of other entrants.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

That’s an assumption….

Of course, but a reasonable one. I can see how it is different to cherry pick once you have raced as opposed to choosing when you are ready to start and then racing in every round after.

given it’s a pretty radical design, the last 2 cars of this sort were the delta wing and Nissan…..

Oh, I think we’re taking about different things? The radical nature of the design is irrelevant to my comment.

[hondafan37]

I honestly cannot understand the position of the ACO against Glickenhaus.
The Glickenhaus 007 was the car that most encouraged passion in 2021.
Honestly, I do not care if there are 10, 20 or 40 LMP2 next year, they are all the same cars that do inspire nothing !!!
I also do not understand the position of IMSA making Glickenhaus out of its series for the next years. Carroll Shelby and Enzo Ferrari were also small builders.
Imagine if there would be a Glickenhaus 007 as a guest car next weekend at Petit Le Mans this would be fantastic...... obviously IMSA should allow 007 to race with more power than the WEC to be competitive against the DPI.
The only thing that I would change to 007 to be perfect !!!! it would be the engine, this car should have a V12 NA !!!!

[S griffin]

Thing is we sometimes need those privateers to keep the enthusiasm up. And Glick did alright considering where it came from

Let's face it, it's been a struggle to get the manufacturers back and, while LMP2 is great in it's own right, it doesn't quite get the enthusiasm of LMP1

I do wonder what IMSA's long term plans if it is not allowing Glick in. Glick would fit perfectly there, but it seems IMSA are moving away from what US Sportscar racing use to be about. But the series hasn't quite been what it was a couple of years ago, so you do wonder if they are doing the right thing, even if I still hold out hope for the series to continue going.

It's just a shame after how far the Glickenhaus project has gone. Built a car on less budget than the manufacturers, that has been quick enough to beat the LMP2s and finish a respectful distance behind the LMP1s.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

The Glickenhaus 007 was the car that most encouraged passion in 2021.

You can't pay bills with passion.

For everything else that has been said, this is ultimately about the bottom line. If there was something credible to indicate that keeping the 007 on the grid would bolster the ACO's coffers, you'd be sure they would bend over backwards to accommodate them - just like they regularly do for global manufacturers.

It's vehemently disagreeable, but perfectly understandable.

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I also do not understand the position of IMSA making Glickenhaus out of its series for the next years. Carroll Shelby and Enzo Ferrari were also small builders.
Imagine if there would be a Glickenhaus 007 as a guest car next weekend at Petit Le Mans this would be fantastic...... obviously IMSA should allow 007 to race with more power than the WEC to be competitive against the DPI.

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder what IMSA's long term plans if it is not allowing Glick in. Glick would fit perfectly there, but it seems IMSA are moving away from what US Sportscar racing use to be about. But the series hasn't quite been what it was a couple of years ago, so you do wonder if they are doing the right thing, even if I still hold out hope for the series to continue going.

Honestly, at least IMSA are more up-front about their requirement for manufacturer backing, on and off-track. No couching it in vague commitment terms - pay up or don't turn up.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I honestly cannot understand the position of the ACO against Glickenhaus.
The Glickenhaus 007 was the car that most encouraged passion in 2021.

Passion has nothing to do with it.

What part of the series is oversubscribed do you not understand? It’s pretty straight forward. If they want an entry they go full season just like anyone else. Simple as that. It’s not up to the series to have to change for one entrant who wants to cherry pick races when demand for full season entries outstrip supply.

I’ve got no sympathy for Glickenhaus in this case. Enter the full season or sit on the sidelines. Pick one.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by rich07

What part of the series is oversubscribed do you not understand?

It's oversubscribed with grid filler. Why would one turn away headliners to get more support acts? That's the part I don't understand.