A case to go back to smaller wheels and tyres

[bathurst77]

It might make driving "trickier" but these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. And all drivers will have equal handicap.
So if it makes the car faster or slower is not an issue, as long as its the same for all.
I think they look great. And when youre watching on tv you cant tell if the car is a couple of seconds faster or slower.

[Adam43]

I think the wheels should be 390mm metric. Any other size makes the racing worse, looks awful and has significant safety concerns.

Plus I have several sets I can sell the paddock. Super cheap.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

I've seen quotes (none of them authoritative in any way) that the monocoque weighs 35kg, 50kg, 80kg and in one case 99.1kg, all of these being before any additional stuff like steering wheels, seats, drinks bottles, wiring looms, pedal box & pedals, leg foam, cockpit surround and halo are added in.

However, I was referring more to the visual perception of the cars being "fat". They look the way they do because there's simply more _stuff_ around the driver.

I'm quite liking the variation we're getting this year though.

Mercedes, RBR, Williams and Haas?

Oh, okay, anything that keeps the scenery off the driver is good as both Max and Lewis demonstrated last year, be good if the didn't behave like they were indestructible though. Neither would still be around with 70s level safety.

The variation in the designs is great, now to go and race them, can't wait.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think the wheels should be 390mm metric. Any other size makes the racing worse, looks awful and has significant safety concerns.

Plus I have several sets I can sell the paddock. Super cheap.

Oi! Quit trying to flog your TRX wheels off the unsuspecting racing teams!

[Adam43]

I invested in some old Jaguar saloons.

Anyone got any power steering fluid?

[Sodemo]

Maybe they should use shopping trolley wheels?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The original 18" tyres with a smaller total diameter - 7 years ago, that's how slow things change in F1! - were certainly more pleasing, but it is what it is. F2 have raced the LMP diameter tyres without issue.

Thanks for digging up this photo. I was searching for these shots to illustrate my up thread explanation of how they started out with 18'' inch at a still normal diameter (around 690mm I suspect) but eventually ended up with something much larger and couldn't get off their 18'' horse no more because they made so much fuss about it.

Here is the shot of the 2022 Mercedes. At the rear especially you can well see the difference in tyre wall height of the initial concept and what we en up with. Also note the driver visor height in comparison to the to of the tyre/wake deflector in both images.




Now I will do as promised and go back into thread hibernation because I was getting a bit of a grumpy old fart over this.

[wnut]

^^^^^
Looks bad when you show it like that Taxi645.

When you don't want to design a suspension for low profile tyres ...

[Taxi645]

I'll continue my tires mumbling back here so to not pollute the Future rule changes thread. Below are two examples of cars fitted with fictional 645mm diameter, 15-inch tires and wheel so with the same tyre wall height as the 2022 cars.

So this is F: 270/645/R15 / R: 370/645/R15:



If they really wanted to go small and light than the below car is what a 2016 Mercedes would've looked like with the following specs: car on the right: F: 245/645/R15 / R: 345/645/R15 and car on the left, with the actual tire diameter of that time: F: 245/660/R13 / R: 325/660/R13 (the car on the right is 1.840mm wide at the rear because it was easier to manipulate the image with the tire becoming wider to the outside):



So 15mm smaller diameter, 20mm wider in the rear and 15 instead of 13-inch wheels. This car had a 3.500mm wheelbase (1.800mm wide), so the 2026 car would possibly be 100-200mm shorter still. To me it doesn't look as good as the wider spec on the Super Formula car above. In terms of drag and weight though, it would be really close to the pre-2017 generation tires. Frontal area is only 1% larger in total.



To me smaller diameter tires makes much more sense:

1 Lower weight
2 Less drag
3 Makes same width tires look wider/better (if in proportion to the size of the car).

[Taxi645]

can be removed

[Sodemo]

I personally liked the fat sidewall tyres on F1 cars. I find it humorous that they should lobby hard for larger wheels, then cover them up with aero discs so that you can't even see them - making the whole project pointless. That is "so F1".

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I personally liked the fat sidewall tyres on F1 cars. I find it humorous that they should lobby hard for larger wheels, then cover them up with aero discs so that you can't even see them - making the whole project pointless. That is "so F1".

We can rehash this thread, but the point was never to visually show the internals of the wheels. There is nothing out of sync with the goals regarding the wheel covers.

Richard

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

We can rehash this thread, but the point was never to visually show the internals of the wheels. There is nothing out of sync with the goals regarding the wheel covers.

Richard

What was the point in moving to larger wheels then? In my mind it was to appease wheel manufacturers who saw little "road relevance" in using 13" rims on F1 cars?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What was the point in moving to larger wheels then? In my mind it was to appease wheel manufacturers who saw little "road relevance" in using 13" rims on F1 cars?

It was about the tyre, not the wheel.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What was the point in moving to larger wheels then? In my mind it was to appease wheel manufacturers who saw little "road relevance" in using 13" rims on F1 cars?

Perhaps Michelin's refusal to bid for the tyre supply using 13" wheels had something to do with it but that is only speculation on my part.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It was about the tyre, not the wheel.

Yes

Originally Posted by Casper

Perhaps Michelin's refusal to bid for the tyre supply using 13" wheels had something to do with it but that is only speculation on my part.

And yes. 13" F1 tires were very much outside of the norm as to what suppliers cared to provide. Other top level series were already using lower profile tires.

"Pretty" wheels/rims was never a factor. I believe the wheel covers are part of the overall 2022 aero concept (to help reduce/control the turbulence from the wheels). If they had stuck with 13" wheels for some reason, they likely would have been covered as well.

Richard

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

"Pretty" wheels/rims was never a factor.

How are you so sure, I don't suppose you were in the board room of all the stakeholders? I don't think many forum members will raise their hand if you ask if anyone ever worked for an organization that never communicated anything different internally than externally.

Would be strange if the looks were a communicated design goal for the whole car, but not a consideration in choosing the wheel and tire size. It's not as if a large part of the target audience has never put decent sized wheels on their car for the looks.

Any way. Just wanted to put in the effort to show that smaller wheels and tires can still look the part if they have decent width to diameter ratio and they are in proportion to the rest of the car.

About the stated goals for the new wheels (actually we went through this upthread:

- Interchangeability with prototype tires; physically different diameter and compounds not comparable so that's a no.
- Technology transfer between F1 and prototype racing due to a more similar side wall height; You only need the same side wall height for that, not the same wheel size. Both sizes in the two image above have the same side wall height as current F1 cars, so also for this reason you don't need 18-inch
-Technology transfer between F1 and the road due to a more similar side wall height; As above this does not require the same wheels size but similar side wall height. Same as above you don't need 18-inch for that.

Now consider the following stated goals for the 2026 regulations:

- Less drag
- Less weight
- Maintain or improve cars ability to follow, could be aided by less turbulent air coming off the tires.
- Smaller cars

All above favours smaller wheels and tires. So considering the stated goals for the going to 18-inch don't actually require 18-inch but rather an appropriate side wall height and further considering that the stated goals for the 2026 regulations strongly promote smaller wheels and tires, to me the only rational thing to do for the 2026 regulation would be to go for the same side wall height but on a smaller wheel.

[crmalcolm]

Mario Isola: “We are obviously very happy as moving to an 18-inch tire is good for our technology transfer from race to road, because the sizes are a lot more relevant compared to the 13-inch.”

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Mario Isola: “We are obviously very happy as moving to an 18-inch tire is good for our technology transfer from race to road, because the sizes are a lot more relevant compared to the 13-inch.”

Yes that's what he said. However, as per above, for the actual technology transfer, the tire wall height is much more relevant than the actual wheel size.

[crmalcolm]

I think we're heading towards -

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think we're heading towards -

Well the introduction of the 2026 regulations goals was relevant for this thread. Feel free to ignore it if it bores you too much.

[S griffin]

Let’s just hope they come up with a good solution for 2026. I think it’s right to keep discussing this

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Well the introduction of the 2026 regulations goals was relevant for this thread. Feel free to ignore it if it bores you too much.

If we look back 12 years, the following was being discussed in this forum:

'18" is being pushed by Michelin, as it would bring it in line with the sports car tyres that they produce. saves setting up a new production line I suppose. Personally I think it would look hideous.'

So the argument has been pushed for over 12 years now, but as much as posters hear might be convinced, it is not here that opinions need to be changed (hence my reference).

Pirelli and Michelin both say that 18" works for them when it comes to the production benefits - that is where the convincing needs to be done. And as much as we like to criticise, Pirelli and Michelin know a bit more than most posters about making tyres for motorsport.....

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I personally liked the fat sidewall tyres on F1 cars.

They were running 15" wheels (as below) over 50 years ago though. They only went to 13" wheels because of the rules: first FISA setting a maximum rear wheel diameter of 13" (sometime in the the mid-70's) and later FISA setting a maximum front wheel diameter of 13" ('83 or '84? maybe).



Obviously USAC had people running 15" as well, USAC set 15" as the maximum rim size and USAC/CART/Indycar never went back to 13" wheels.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What was the point in moving to larger wheels then? In my mind it was to appease wheel manufacturers who saw little "road relevance" in using 13" rims on F1 cars?

I don't think OZ or BBS care, Pirelli, Michelin and others preferred 18".

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

How are you so sure, I don't suppose you were in the board room of all the stakeholders? I don't think many forum members will raise their hand if you ask if anyone ever worked for an organization that never communicated anything different internally than externally.

Seriously?

I know I can be pedantic at times, but this is a bit over the top. No, I was not a fly on the wall. How about I tweak my comment... "It was never stated to be a goal publicly". No doubt various aspects were discussed.

Why did I ever step back into this pointless thread.



Richard