[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 12 of 21

[Chaynes321]

Question: Why didn't Red Bull leave Max out for a bit (say 8 Laps?) - then pit Max for the Red Soft tyre to swap the game around - as Lewis had put the Yellow Medium tyre on?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

Question: Why didn't Red Bull leave Max out for a bit (say 8 Laps?) - then pit Max for the Red Soft tyre to swap the game around - as Lewis had put the Yellow Medium tyre on?

It was a dilemma. Yes, he would have the newer softer tyre, but he would've lost track position. You first than have to over take Hamilton on track. Secondly, Hamilton's victory was not only down to strategy. Mercedes still had about 0.15s pace advantage. At the Hongaroring you need about a 1.5s pace advantage to get past. So say 0.6s for the soft tyre and another 0.3s being 5 laps newer. That give 0.6 + 0.3 - 0.15s = 0.75s pace advantage on the softs. That would've been too little to make it work most likely.




What they could've done is switch to a 2nd set of mediums on the first stop, try to built a small gap on the softer mediums (compared to Hamilton's hard's) and than switch to the softs for a last dash and overtake. But still it would've been quite a gamble and 100% hindsight. They expected the medium and hard's to last longer, but they hadn't been able to test the hard's in practise and both were forced to push the tyres much harder than usual.

[chillibowl]

Im questioning RBR race software/strategy people.

Maybe i saw it wrong but covering LH's and trusting Max to fight it out with LH was the better less risky option... both at the moment and in hindsight right?

You have the inferior car so you put the race in your star driver's hands. Bad on a strategy and team management level.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

Question: Why didn't Red Bull leave Max out for a bit (say 8 Laps?) - then pit Max for the Red Soft tyre to swap the game around - as Lewis had put the Yellow Medium tyre on?

No confidence in their driver being able to overtake Hamilton.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

For some reason Danny couldnt understand most of the problems were Renault related

The entire team except Dan had the knives out for Renault. They justified themselves by blaming Renault for all their woes. Now they can't say enough kind things about Honda, yet their competitive position has barely changed.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

The entire team except Dan had the knives out for Renault. They justified themselves by blaming Renault for all their woes. Now they can't say enough kind things about Honda, yet their competitive position has barely changed.

I'm not too sure about that. Compared to this time last year, after the Hungarian GP, Verstappen is 3rd in the WDC and Gasly 6th, while in 2018 Ricciardo was the only RBR driver in the top 5. So far, Verstappen has finished in every race, with 5 podiums. Last year he had 3 retirements and Ricciardo had 4. Gasly has retired once. Last year Verstappen had one win, this year he has 2 and got his first pole. RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not too sure about that. Compared to this time last year, after the Hungarian GP, Verstappen is 3rd in the WDC and Gasly 6th, while in 2018 Ricciardo was the only RBR driver in the top 5. So far, Verstappen has finished in every race, with 5 podiums. Last year he had 3 retirements and Ricciardo had 4. Gasly has retired once. Last year Verstappen had one win, this year he has 2 and got his first pole. RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.

Bah! Barely an improvement! Ban Honda. Bunch of do nothings.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.

I think that about sums it up. It has barely changed. It has improved a bit, but has it moved them up the championship order? Max has driven better, which for sure helps. The first pole position was at a track where traditionally RBR have been strong regardless of engine, and it's the circuit where the engine means the least.

RBR Honda is far from the disaster of the McLaren Honda. But it hasn't done much to move them up the grid yet. Replaced the engine, stayed about the same? Well, maybe the car is a bigger issue than RBR care to admit. Like a slightly less silly very of McLaren.

Side note: This is another reason the pandering to engine manufacturers is a bad thing. Thanks to these ridiculous expensive engines, the lack of choice of motors makes it harder to judge cars since it takes years for a team to move due to the lack of options.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think that about sums it up. It has barely changed. It has improved a bit, but has it moved them up the championship order? Max has driven better, which for sure helps. The first pole position was at a track where traditionally RBR have been strong regardless of engine, and it's the circuit where the engine means the least.

RBR Honda is far from the disaster of the McLaren Honda. But it hasn't done much to move them up the grid yet. Replaced the engine, stayed about the same? Well, maybe the car is a bigger issue than RBR care to admit. Like a slightly less silly very of McLaren.

Side note: This is another reason the pandering to engine manufacturers is a bad thing. Thanks to these ridiculous expensive engines, the lack of choice of motors makes it harder to judge cars since it takes years for a team to move due to the lack of options.

I think the results from both drivers, compared to last year, says otherwise.

[gert]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think the results from both drivers, compared to last year, says otherwise.

Nah, I think Akrapovic is right. 244 compared to 223 is nothing.
After 12 races, on average that difference is not even a point per driver per race.

Last year, Verstappen had a bad start to the season. Involved in too many accidents, like Bahrain, Baku ... None of these were Renault's error.
This year, he has a much better start, none of which has anything to do with Renault or Honda.

Just the Baku accident has cost them 22 points (4th and 5th) so that would make it 244-245.

[Richard C]

Beyond my "ban Honda" joke above, I am puzzled by the perspective that Honda has not had a positive impact at RBR. First the numbers.... are better, but feel free to ignore those if you don't like what they tell you.

I would ask (a harder question to answer)... Who is in ascendance right now? Honda or Renault? A year or two ago Honda would have been the wrong answer. Now... I would say Honda is.

My other argument is that at the end, the relationship between RBR and Renault was toxic. While everyone can say (and maybe rightly so) that RBR might turn and bite Honda at any moment... So far things are going swimmingly. That HAS to have a positive impact for both parties. Honda + McLaren and RBR + Renault (at the end) are two toxic relationships. I would say that all four organizations are in better places today given what I suspect is mostly positive partnerships. The looser here is Renault powered Renault.

Much of this is moot as the recent regulation changes for the cars has made it hard to compare year to year. Too many changing variables to reach strong conclusions.

Richard

[gert]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Honda + McLaren and RBR + Renault (at the end) are two toxic relationships. I would say that all four organizations are in better places today given what I suspect is mostly positive partnerships. The looser here is Renault powered Renault.

I surely agree on this.

I also agree that the '19 Honda engine is much better than the '17 version.

However, I don't think Red Bull has achieved anything that they would not have been able to achieve with Renault power.
Likewise, I have the feeling McLaren would more or less be where they are now - with a '19 Renault or a '19 Honda.

Comparing results is not fair, because there are too many variables at play (driver errors, management calls, bad luck, ...) that have nothing to do with the engine itself.

But that's just my view.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

Nah, I think Akrapovic is right. 244 compared to 223 is nothing.
After 12 races, on average that difference is not even a point per driver per race.

Last year, Verstappen had a bad start to the season. Involved in too many accidents, like Bahrain, Baku ... None of these were Renault's error.
This year, he has a much better start, none of which has anything to do with Renault or Honda.

Just the Baku accident has cost them 22 points (4th and 5th) so that would make it 244-245.

I don't think 21 points is nothing, it's 21 points you don't have for whatever reason.

This year's good start compared to last year's bad start, could be down to a better chassis/engine combination. McLaren had problems with their chassis and fitting the Honda engine in it. Getting that combination right can affect the balance, as well as the handling of the car. and therefore a driver's performance.

It would seem Verstappen has the better package, hence his much better start to this season.

[chillibowl]

If Ric was still in the other RBR then its not hard to imagine RBR to be right there with Ferrari...maybe even ahead of them on points.

I wonder how faster the RBR Honda was at Hungary vs last year with Renault... doesnt prove much but still an interesting number to measure improvement with.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

If Ric was still in the other RBR then its not hard to imagine RBR to be right there with Ferrari...maybe even ahead of them on points.

I wonder how faster the RBR Honda was at Hungary vs last year with Renault... doesnt prove much but still an interesting number to measure improvement with.

Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.

And that statement obviously ignores anothe variable, Weather

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

And that statement obviously ignores anothe variable, Weather

Not at all, the weather affected everyone's times.

Hamilton. Q1: 1:17.419. Q2: 1:31.242. Q3 1:35.658. Pole

Vettel. Q1: 1:16.666. Q2: 1:28.636. Q3 1:36.210. 4th

Grosjean. Q1: 1:17.901. Q2: 1:33.650. Q3: 1:40.593. 10th

[HDTVKSS]

Ferrari isn't the force they were this year compared to last, so BRB has more or less been able to take better advantage of that.

It looks like the Honda is at least more reliable and i would say on the whole a better package. It looked like at the start of the year the car was maybe under aeroed but they seem to have caught that up now and its showing in the results. the thing that is holding RBR back at the moment is the Gasly factor, not the powerplant. I expect them to swap out that component soon enough.

[HDTVKSS]

With the KMag / Ric battle and the moving under braking allegations - im wondering if more drivers took a leaf out of the Verstappen book of "racecraft" this wouldn't happen as much.

Ie - im sending it and if you block me, were both going to have a crash. No one really plays those games with MV anymore and he seems to be given a lot of space by the driver now ( even though he took all that and more in Austria - but thats kind of my point).

Its not necessarily the racing I want to see but when you have someone like Kmag who is already under pressure for performance and Ric, whos in the 1st year of a contract, is it worth sending a few dodgy maneuvers that may or may not result in a safety car to build a bit of a reputation? of course on the flipside one doesn't want to be known as the modern Maldonado.

On the negative, hes probably looking to put in clean drives unlike the current incumbent in the outside chance of a Ferrari or Merc seat becoming available for him.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.

thanks for looking that up.

obviously lots of variables from year to year but a little over 1 second faster in the Q1 times. weather, rules, and tires aside 1 second is not nothing.

doesnt prove much either though!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I would ask (a harder question to answer)... Who is in ascendance right now? Honda or Renault? A year or two ago Honda would have been the wrong answer. Now... I would say Honda is.

agreed. RBR Honda seem to be on the up and buoyed by a driver line up that also has a rejuvenated Kvyat and racey Albon in the wings.

Mcalren has the driver line up and seem to be well on their way to sorting their chassis out but their supplier/works Renault team look to be completely lost.

i guess what im not sure of is are Renault's problems just with the race team/chassis or are their other problems in Viry-Chatillon?

just speculation, but at the least i would suspect that on the engine side they are being outspent.i question their ability to catch up in the short to medium term.

[S griffin]

It’s a perfect package from the RBR-Honda and so is the one most likely to challenge Merc