Historic replicas. A sensible discussion please

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tom Walker

It occurred to me while reading this interesting thread, that many of these issues are thrown up when the builder/owner of a replica wishes to race his/her car. There cant be much to stop any enterprising individual with the funds from building a replica. But if one wants to go racing, with a particular car, and that car happens to be a replica, would'nt it be advisable, for many obvious reasons, to find out if there is somewhere to race it before you start building it?

Maybe I'm being a bit dim (not unknown!) but I thought that there were places to race most replicas; SR & GT, most regional Sports/ Saloons series etc.

[terence]

That has been the trend since the mid to late eighties Zef. The last Healey I restored came out at 42K,the owner was not too concerned! Thing is,at todays prices,it still hasn't been a good investment. It's only the upper types,Ferrari's,GT40s and so on that MIGHT be worth the restoration cost.

[Al Weyman]

And by God does a Mk 1 and 2 Cortina know how to rust! A mate of mines customer bought a 'restored' twin cam Mk 2 and found it to be the biggest lash up ever, it even had (and this is true, he showed me) concrete in the chassis rails the thing had to have £5k spent on the body/chassis before he even got round to the engine etc which was a mess and this guy had paid upwards of £20k for this 'minter'!!!

[zefarelly]

Lowtit Tinas have always been bodged up, we walked away from several and finally decided what I really wanted was a GT, at least I found an honest car . . . well 3 actually! I guess MK2 and E type Jags fall into that category as well

[Julian Bronson]

Originally Posted by gt917

Who owns what, what is under the skin, how old, race history and where do you compete with it now ???

Problems, issues, HTP papers.

Sensible ,constructive posts please.

There is lots of places to race replicas ie Dtypes ERA LIsters GT40s however there is very few places to race Shoping Mall display cars that are Cobras with Rover V8 or 917s with 911 running gear or Dtypes with independent rear suspension they give the decent cars a bad name

[Tim Falce]

Julian, you obviously didn't read the last line of the OP.

[john ruston]

He did and that's the Bronse opinion.

Very succinct and I agree with it.A replica is an exact copy of a historic car.These will bugger up original cars with continuous histories in the long run but that seems to be a given with FIA and that stuff.

A look alike with other mechanicals is a display model only but owners are the ones who spend the money and best of luck to them .Some one should start a race series for pretend cars.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by john ruston

A look alike with other mechanicals is a display model only but owners are the ones who spend the money and best of luck to them .Some one should start a race series for pretend cars.

I thought that's what a lot of the Masters series are for.

[SAMD]

So are we saying that exact copies that can achieve HTP status are ok 'cos there is really no difference (mechanically at least) 'tween them and an original, but the non exact ones that can not achieve HTPs are only fit to race each other?

[simon drabble]

yes

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by SAMD

So are we saying that exact copies that can achieve HTP status are ok 'cos there is really no difference (mechanically at least) 'tween them and an original, but the non exact ones that can not achieve HTPs are only fit to race each other?

Originally Posted by simon drabble

yes

Which kind of blows the argument about continuations doesn't it?

[simon drabble]

not really - it means a continuation/replica will get papers if it is a perfect copy (or put another way conforms to the HTP papers). If it is built to a different spec it is not a replica merely a tribute. It could not be more straightforward.
Any car which has HTP papers will be allowed into historic races but tributes would have to run with other tributes and varuious other cars that do not run to a specific set of regs.
It does not make any car better or worse just a case of it is what it is.

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

Perhaps a trawl through the threads would be timnley.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Hmm,

Perhaps a trawl through the threads would be timnley.

Or indeed timely.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Steamrollering cars or chinese Rolex watches comes to the same thing! I remember the Ferrari group destroying a Maserati 200S or similar a few years ago (which also used genuine parts).

Are you thinking of this story?:

http://www.historic-racer.com/phpBazar/main.php?mc_id=9

[gt917]

A statement of fact for Julian Bronson to recall and think upon.

not so long my replica 917K was hired, along with me, by FloGas, a subsidary company of a major holding company who also own Gulf Oil UK, to be the focal point on their stand at a exhibition at the NEC. Mr Bronson was at that show and visited the stand and we had a very good chat about racing, Goodwood, his Lola and of course the 917. He was full of praise about its accuracy and build and the fact that i used it in anger. Even took the front nostril panel off so he could see how accurate it was and comments like "f" me is that all there is in frontal protection, etc.

Now he refers to it as a "shopping mall" car with 911 running gear. I regret now not pouring insults about his car. Whether it is jealousy that he could not fit in the car or has not the nerve to race one, i know not but if he had bothered to really look at its set up he would have seen that it bears f... all resemblence to a 911 suspension, etc. IT IS NOT AN ORIGINAL CAR, IT IS A RECREATION, but by jove it is,nt a bad one and does not deserve all the misinformed criticism. I, and fellow replica owners don,t play at racing.

Willi Kausen would not have wasted his time and setting up advice at Spa and David Piper selling me items and given his friendship and time as always for a "911 Shopping mall car". Mark Hales, Derek Bell, Brian Redman, Willy Green, etc have not been so vindictive.

Why do we have to have pointless, incorrect answers to perfectly legitimate questions raised in all seriousness. If you look at any of my posts i have always been open, honest and hopefully fluent and stated facts as they have manifest themselves to me and the original question was not about me or my cars, but about replicas in general and hopefully getting some of those out of the cobwebs and racing again.

Ohhhhhh, i despare at times.

[john ruston]

Julian Bronson was talking about cars in general not particularly your replica ,copy or whatever you want to call it.Does know a bit about old bangers.

You have obviously spent lots of time,energy, money on the project and are proud of it but people have opinions and they may be out of line from your standpoint.They are entitled to an opinion as you are yours.

I assume what you have is a more or less perfect copy of the cars as in period but with alternative mechanical parts as things like engines are prohibitively expensive.Remember seeing it at Chumley and Snetterton.

This does not make people correct or incorrect ,its an opinion and like arses everyone has one.

Be a good idea to chill,its Christmas.It's a hobby.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Be a good idea to chill,its Christmas.It's a hobby.

wise words

we had a similar themed discussion about guitars during rehearsal this evening . . . I have a mid 60's Gibson semi acoustic bass amongst others . . . . you can buy them new as well now . . . I have a mid 80's rickenbacker which is a reissue of an early 60's model . . . which has also just been reissued again!

the nice thing about having a relatively worthless oddball car is none of this prattle is relevant, no one would rip one off in their right mind. or maybe thats the problem?

time for my medication

[gt917]

[QUOTE=john ruston;2999912]"Julian Bronson was talking about cars in general not particularly your replica ,copy or whatever you want to call it.Does know a bit about old bangers".

"You have obviously spent lots of time,energy, money on the project and are proud of it but people have opinions and they may be out of line from your standpoint."

Mr Ruston,
I have not had a standpoint in any of this topic. It is not about me. I asked the question and it is you and others that have had a go. More fool me for thinking, as Tim has said, that there are not many out there looking at this site and i allowed myself to be drawn in by the unjustifiable and inaccurate comments.

Get real, of course he was having a direct jibe. There is not another in this country.

Please read this whole thread from the start and see how it has been distorted and turned by you, Bronson, etc, completely on its head.

Thanks for nowt.

PS. I,ve already wished everyone seasonal greetings. Turn that one on its head.

[RickT]

Hi Guys

Thought I would join in on this one and add my thoughts having had feet firmly in both Historic and Replica racing.

Through my fathers racing we, as a family and a family business, have been actively racing in historic motorsport since 1978. We have run various McLarens, Chevrons, Merlyns, BRMs, Jaguars, etc, etc over the years and continue to do so at as many Historic events as time and money allows. We have loved every minute of it and more recently our family business Autotune has been more and more involved with Historic race preparation too.

In the early 80s dad was becoming disheartened by the rising costs of the Historic Can-Am racing scene in the UK and Europe and decided to go right back to basics - he built a Jaguar XK120 replica using all Jag XJ6 running gear to race in the new 750MC Kit Car Racing Championship. As a family we again had great fun driving the car to the meetings, racing it, then driving it home! The car attracted a lot of attention and others asked for one too, so the fun project became part of the business ! We have since sold examples of the Aristocat worldwide for the past 28 years and continue to do so. This was followed by the Gemini - a replica of an Elva Mk2 that Dad had restored and raced years earlier, the Gemini was soon out racing in the Kit Series and continues to sell well for both the road and track.

When the Historic Replicar Series started in the early 90s we joined in and raced our Aristocat, various Geminis, an original McLaren M1B a few times and finally built up some McLaren M1C replicas. The Replicar races provided terrific fun racing in a brilliant series featuring lookalike replica GT40s, T70s, McLarens, Cobras, Listers, XK/C/D/E type Jags, etc, etc. There was all the noise and visions of the great historic era but at a much more attainable budget and it thrived for a number of years. Unfortunately the series suffered for a few years after a change of organiser, before eventually becoming the current SR&GT series. Around this time we were heavily involved in setting up the racing side of the Jag Enthusiasts Club and so we headed off there with the Aristocat and also began to be much more involved with Historic racing again.

Recent historic racing has seen the introduction of continuation cars from Lola, Chevron, Crossle, etc and other rarer ones like the Lancia D50s, Sharknose Ferraris, etc. Im all for it, i would rather have the opportunity to see (and hear - wow!!) the D50 hammering round Goodwood than never see one run like that. The same goes for watching and competing in Masters races bolstered by extra B16s and T70s, etc, the spectacle is better for it I think.

So I guess the jist of all this for me is that Replica racing and Historic racing are both tremendous fun and have co-existed for years in various forms and I hope they will continue to do so. The sad thing is that we recently sold our own M1C replica to the USA or we would probably have brought it out in a few of the new Crossle races next year ! The Crossles mixed with the lovely 917, a few GT40s, maybe the odd Lotus 23, etc, sounds great fun. Im quite tempted to buid up another M1 rep to come out and play.......will have to see how long it takes us to restore this M10B first though, I need to sleep sometime this winter !!

Cheers
Richard Taylor

[simon drabble]

what I dont understand is the animosity - all we are saying is that perfect copies can race anywhere but tributes are rightly so not accepted into historic race meetings.
This is not a personal pop and should not be considered as such. Equally original cars are not allowed to run to a spec different to the papers.
Its very straightforward.

[delta]

Originally Posted by john ruston

He did and that's the Bronse opinion.

Very succinct and I agree with it.A replica is an exact copy of a historic car.These will bugger up original cars with continuous histories in the long run but that seems to be a given with FIA and that stuff.

A look alike with other mechanicals is a display model only but owners are the ones who spend the money and best of luck to them .Some one should start a race series for pretend cars.

They have.or they did. 750 M/C.

[Julian Bronson]

I was not refering to any one car as i dont know who you are hiding behind a pseudonym i remember your car well and comlimented you on the attension to detail making the car look like a 917 if you had taken the time making it handle like a 917 you may have done more the 200 yards at cholmondley.

[Mogger]

Interesting thread….my two penneth (it’s about worth that).

I take great pleasure from attending and competing in historic motorsport all over Europe. I have no problems with replicas/recreations or however you want to describe them, but please, can they be described correctly in the race programme/paddock as to what they really are. When I see a C type, D type, GT40 etc, I used to get a buzz…..now, I’m never so sure what I’m looking at…is it real…or is it a copy? At least with the Sharknose Ferrari and Lancia D50 you know it’s a recreation as all the originals were destroyed.

Here’s a thought. How about adding a c (for Copy) or r (for recreation) after the race number to make it clear for everyone. It’s one thing being overtaken by a pukka Alfa 8c (thrill) but irritating to be blown into the weeds by a !!**??*!!!…which you find after the race to have been built last week!! So recreations/copies….they’re fine but please be open about it and print it in the programme and indicate it on your car so we know what we’re watching and competing against.

[terence]

That has already been tried,didn't seem to suit the owners of the non original cars,almost as if they felt it cheapened their own cars? Sorry,but I for one still do not think that continuation has a rightful place on a historic grid.Time to stand back I think.