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14 Jul 2020, 01:48 (Ref:3988444) | #101 | ||
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Besides, Questionable is a good thing for endurance races too |
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15 Jul 2020, 00:19 (Ref:3988452) | #102 | ||
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Reopened after a polite request from a member
It’s on a short leash. No snide comments, bickering, patronising or dismissive posts. If you are just here to win a worthless argument about motorsport go away. See the sticky here in Aussie: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150661 And have a read of the FAQ: https://tentenths.com/forum/faq.php?...ules_behaviour Last edited by Adam43; 15 Jul 2020 at 00:37. |
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2 Aug 2020, 08:31 (Ref:3992220) | #103 | |
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Well, Adam and I have had a chat. We'll see what happens.
Should TCR have ATCC status? I say "yes", and for many reasons. They all won't necessarily be stated today. Last year's series was sufficiently substantial to do the title justice. It's the 2nd biggest class in Australia already, and the highest level of authentic touring cars in Australia. Thanks to Umai Naa in the other thread, I'm now able to be more succinct than I was previously. On of the biggest reasons why TCR hasn't got ATCC is double standards, favourable to the supercars entity. It's overwhelming On the flipside, morally, supercars should be stripped of ATCC status. But unfortunately for betterment of Australian motorsport, it has to keep atcc status for reason other than contractual. It underpins a small, but professional, industry. It actully would kill of a small industry of atcc status was taken off because they don't offer much. Supercars actually needs it (Even if series champions don't even know what it is) because it doesn't have much else to trade off. If you isolated supercars from the rest of the atcc history, it's actually pretty ordinary. They're 5 litre V8s, but they're plain compared to previous eras. For whatever popularity it boasts to have, they're actually not as popular as it seems. Most of you would remember the poll before it was deleted? That pretty much told the story of Australia motor racing better than what Gordan Lomas would. The "yes, or inclined to" vote was split into two, the no vote was unbroken. Giving a false sense of huge popularity within Australia. No, they're not that big a deal down here. It's why the entity is always trying to keep its head above water. Double standards is what allows it to have it though. It pretty much sticks out in every post against TCR/2litre cars (Even when it's not meant!). And it's also the same problem in the DTM dilemma thread. Why is there no good solution to the DTM's problems? Huge double standards over there as well. |
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3 Aug 2020, 04:47 (Ref:3992624) | #104 | |
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I don't think and I have said it before that either category has a long future in front of it for entirely different reasons which I have also outlined before. Enjoy either while you can because it won't last particularly in Australia. No one can tell the manufacturers what to make apart from legislators and they are all without exception moving away from the IC engine & four door sedans because of the legislation forcing them and also in the case of the sedan consumer preferences. If they don't make you can't race it...end of both categories so putting one in front of another seems rather pointless at this stage of the game but carry on.
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9 Aug 2020, 04:11 (Ref:3993910) | #105 | |
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Yes, I've noted your posts about both series and the impending infiltration of electric vehicles. It comes across to me with a certain doom and gloom.
While the future is uncertain, we haven't lived with the supposed benefit of electric vehicles. Gordon Murray was interviewed on the Motor Sport podcast recently, and he added some doubt on electric vehicles being practical (He's part of some motoring counsel in England, I think?) Otherwise I'd say that until about 80% of motorists in Australia can drive freely with causing a nationwide blackout, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. |
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9 Aug 2020, 08:45 (Ref:3993934) | #106 | |
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Doom and gloom or reality? You do realise that the category of car that is raced in TCR is rapidly being changed to hybrid/electric don't you, witness the latest Mk8 Golf for instance and VW's decision not to continue to develop IC engines. People in Oz need to study what is happening in Europe and the effect this will have on the cars we drive. Equally the US is simply removing them from the market place, you can't race what isn't made. Live in your dream world of the IC motor and 4 door cars because that is what it is fast becoming.
I have seen every Gordon Murray interview and while I admire his views the reality is that goverments are legislating IC motors out of existence and his or my views or even yours are irrelevant. |
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9 Aug 2020, 10:33 (Ref:3993954) | #107 | |
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It may be reality. But it comes across to me as "doom and gloom". While I acknowledge all the points you've made, we're yet to see the realities of electric vehicles being a part of everyday driving. It's a picture that's not clear to me, so I hesitate adjusting my opinion.
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10 Aug 2020, 00:12 (Ref:3994333) | #108 | ||
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How long can you see TCR surviving using an IC motor? |
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10 Aug 2020, 00:25 (Ref:3994336) | #109 | ||
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We may not like it but the world of motoring is going to change and that means motor racing will change. Unfortunately I am not going to see it in my lifetime which I regret but it will happen and sticking our head in the sand will get you a mouth full and not much else. As for comparing SC and TCR it is like watching Lemmings jump off cliffs unfortunately. The one thing motor racing must avoid is using hybrids, that is financial disaster in the extreme. |
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13 Aug 2020, 11:37 (Ref:3995140) | #110 | |
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13 Aug 2020, 12:13 (Ref:3995151) | #111 | ||
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In reference to your following comment.
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13 Aug 2020, 13:36 (Ref:3995177) | #112 | |
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You are forgetting one thing, TCR will not be raced in Europe with an IC engine if the progression to hybrid/BEV continues at its present rate because the cars won't be made with just IC motors. How all this will fall out for the rest of the world no one knows. Go and read some of the legislation changes that have taken place and being proposed in Europe where TCR originated. You are living in dreamland if you think big changes for racing are less than a decade away.
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13 Aug 2020, 14:54 (Ref:3995206) | #113 | |||
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WRX - EVs competing from 2022. I'm not suggesting that ICE will disappear from motorsport at the same rate as hybrid and EVs appear - but big changes are just a couple of years away in some regions. |
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14 Aug 2020, 02:46 (Ref:3995309) | #114 | ||||
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VW are not going to make any brand new engine families. Considering these often have 15 year lifespans, they will continue to develop the existing engines for quite some time. Quote:
We had half a season where the promoter owned basically 90% of the cars, and paid drivers to turn up and pretend they owned cars (Jason Bright, Kelly Racing), and paid other stars to come and race cars on behalf of manufacturers who loaned them to local agencies hoping to profit from them. The racing at the front was on occasion spirited, but at other times it was an embarrassment. The Subarus should have been taken out the back and shot. Perhaps the Astras too. It was not sport at all - it was 100% exhibition, paid for by BUSINESS TYPES. ARG showed us what half a season of TCR could look like, and they did a good job. But to say this is more genuine than Supercars is ridiculous in the extreme. It simply does not pass the sniff test. Last edited by Mixer; 14 Aug 2020 at 02:53. |
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16 Aug 2020, 08:14 (Ref:3995686) | #115 | ||
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18 Aug 2020, 13:23 (Ref:3996224) | #116 | ||||||
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Maybe, but fans don't care. Also it's another silly decision made by "business men" who've got more money than sense. It's unnecessary and a decision that can only be justified to themselves. Quote:
It's also laughable because it wouldn't have mattered if they weren't racing. "Big names" like Tander, Van Gisbergen and Whincup have also raced in other categories in the Shannons Nationals, and few people knew or cared. Some of these "stars" are on the nose, like Bright is. The presence of the Kelly's would even be a hinderance on the popularity of the class. I wouldn't even get them to run a HQ Holden for me, It was just a waste of money. "Big names" are only what people who aren't interested in racing worry about. That's why there's a focus on them in TCR. Why you care? I don't know. Unless you're going to get Fernando Alonso or Daniel Ricciardo, there's not one fan that would've turned up to a TCR round last year because of guys like Tander and/or Ingall. Quote:
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You could list all the classes you like, and I'll be able to find numerous processions in amongst them. Your opinion of the Subaru and Astra's are just that, your opinion of THEM. It's not an opinion of TCR. This kind of opinion is typical of a theatre goer. Those type of people worry about stuff that's not important. Quote:
The "half a season" line is more double standards. When you look through a prism where supercars is best or a standard setter, then you tend to make comments that should be criticised for. Half a season? Who says? You? How can I follow this up without getting into trouble???...Err, I'll say this with trepidation. But I'd encourage you to have a broader range of interest and understanding of motor racing. For a domestic competition, 7 is acceptable. Personally, you could go as little as 6 (Which perhaps would be suitable for smaller countries) for a meaningful competition. It's not "half a season", that is your double standards kicking in. For domestic competitions, 8-10 seem around the mark for a substantial series. You can have more, but that doesn't make it better. It just means that it has more. They're not touring cars. They just slower, specialist racing machines. The organisation is all about attracting theatre goers, not car racing fans. |
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18 Aug 2020, 13:26 (Ref:3996225) | #117 | ||
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Easy on the blood pressure Tiger. Had a few too many reds tonight.
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18 Aug 2020, 13:28 (Ref:3996226) | #118 | |
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Also, the bit about ARG owing the cars and making a huge deal about it.
Regarding the size of the field and what was seen on tv last year. All ARG have done is wear the burden of the cost of CAMS being behind the ball for 4 years (As CAMS so often is, and Motorsport Australia is). CAMS could've started the class 5 years ago, regardless of how small the field would've been, and they'd have had a similar sized field to what they had last year. They wouldn't have even needed ARG. So superficially, what you concern yourself with is not important. If TCR in Aus doesn't work, it'll only be due to the short comings of MA and ARG. If it eventuates that ARG pull out because they can't make money out of it, then MA could run it with little fuss afterwards (Assuming they're competent). I don't want to post in the Supercars Gen 3 thread the points I wanted to make as it's more relevant here. But I did have a small chuckle at your approval of TA2. It's just more double standards. TA2 is inherently and amateur class. On average they run the same times as TCR. TA2 also have processional races, and it would be even more processional once supercar teams and drivers get a hold of them. When I read Casper's posts, I wondering if he wants supercars to become amateur or stay professional? Spec, parity, parity-ish, racing is also inherently amateur. Same engines, or anything else compromises professional, top level motor racing. |
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18 Aug 2020, 15:14 (Ref:3996242) | #119 | |
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You called? I find it hard to understand why YOU can't do some research on the current issues that car manufacturers are facing which in turn will decide TCR's future. you definitely have tunnel vision on the whole TCR thing, that much is evident to the most casual observer. Where is that Icon for flogging a dead horse? I like people who are tunnel visioned as they inevitably paint themselves into a corner with no way to retreat.
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18 Aug 2020, 22:31 (Ref:3996324) | #120 | ||
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Oh TCR are legit cars unlike Supercars.
Like the Renault with a Golf engine. Don't worry they have tested an actual Renault engine this year. Or the Honda which offhand has only a crankshaft made by Honda. TCR make up the rules as they see fit. These are bespoke Touring Cars. VAG and Hyundai played by the actual rules but then all the others that come after make up their own rules. The worst being Lynk and Co, which doesn't comply with the rules. Hyundai threatened to leave over it. VAG has left. The remaining manufacturers want to increase the price cap. Anybody who watches touring cars knows this is a familiar story. Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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1 Sep 2020, 10:56 (Ref:3999397) | #121 | ||
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You can pick all the holes you want. Supercars are just large Aussie racing car. They're a caricature, it's just you can't tell from a distance.
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The anticipation of electric cars is not relevant now. Rules are always adjusted in car racing, and cars with 2 litre engines are no different. Your suggestion for gen 3 to have standard engines goes against the notion of professional racing. |
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1 Sep 2020, 12:08 (Ref:3999421) | #122 | |
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TCR could have their own Bathurst 1000 like the Super Tourers did. I don’t see much wrong with that, might get quite a few international drivers joining
However V8 Supercars will still be king, even if there are signs of a bit of decline atm |
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2 Sep 2020, 02:25 (Ref:3999541) | #123 | |||
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If you want to talk about control components being the opposite of professional racing. What is TCR then. Control everything.... And at least 6 manufacturers are running VW/Seat engines in them. Most manufacturers other than Hyundai, VW, Audi, Seat, Subaru have an engine that is either basically the TCR "control" engine, or they have some munted creation that isn't related to any production engine made by the marque. It's not good press but it makes for compelling and equal racing while reducing costs. So you can reduce costs while not changing the show. So let me ask... Are you for it or against it? |
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3 Sep 2020, 07:25 (Ref:3999739) | #124 | ||
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3 Sep 2020, 20:45 (Ref:3999913) | #125 | ||
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Let's venture into this alternative universe for the moment.
At the start of this year Motorsport Australia awards TCR Australia the ATCC title. The COVID pandemic breaks out. Supercars, by the start of September has managed to run a number of races and mapped a calendar that will see the conclusion of their championship at Bathurst in October. TCR have held no races, with a very good chance that they will not hold any races at all this year. That is the difference between a series with professional full time race teams and a series with part time team and drivers. The ATCC should and must continue to be awarded to the most professional level tin top category in the country. |
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