GT2 replaced by GT3 ..... ACO new idea

[Spyderman]

Just a Small note of correction: The Porsche GT2, which they refer to as a possible contender in GT1, has a 3.6L engine and not a 3.8L

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Just a Small note of correction: The Porsche GT2, which they refer to as a possible contender in GT1, has a 3.6L engine and not a 3.8L

Its 3.8 link according to Porsche.

L.P.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Just a Small note of correction: The Porsche GT2, which they refer to as a possible contender in GT1, has a 3.6L engine and not a 3.8L

The 997 is a 3.8 litre engine, 996 has the 3.6 litre. Dont care what FIA says, they never get their facts straight anyway...

[mirkob]

Seems KEONIGSEGG has money problem :-(

[HORNDAWG]

From the other GT/rules/ future thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWK
"...so be it. Teams will have to choose..." What about manufacturers? Will anyone build a new GT1 car for Le Mans, plus ALMS and LMS only? Even in a market that has had (recently) national series along with FIA, there have been few constructors, haven't there?

What if there is a GT1 manufacturer/builder out there right now considering a program? He doesn't care whether it is "Rule A" or "Rule B" so long as there is a significant enough market to sell a dozen cars or so with some certainty. He can in no way expect that with only ACO/IMSA as markets.

I think the ACO/IMSA can ill afford to "sit." Here's something more complete on that point of view.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=206&Itemid=1


Not suggesting that the ACO "sit"

The cars that are running in "LM" GT classes are all basically homologated until 2011-2014 so why the rush to trash them? The ACO have a structure/class/rule change tentatively set for 2010 and with rules and clarifications coming soon to lead down that path. To jump wholesalely on the Ratel wagon is a little premature IMO. I think that the ACO need to find out what its participants ( mfg & teams) thoughts on the matter are before they just move carte blanche with SRO/FIA. There is rumored mfg interest in GT-1 and the ACO taking over the JLMC and maybe a larger Japanese presence possible in all series(?), there may very well may need to be change but the current Ratel propsals do not IMO look to be the best for "LM" series GT's or "LM" as a whole. They do not compete in the same class structure format of racing and the needs of "LM" racing are slightly different than that of just a 2 class GT format.


L.P.

[paul-collins]

I don't think Tom was suggesting jumping on the Ratel wagon wholesale.

I think he's just pointing out that, if ACO keeps the current rules (which support exactly three new-car programs - Corvette, Porsche and Ferrari, when these cars are eligible across all series) then there will be a reduced ability for any new manufacturers to justify joining up.

I think his idea is that ACO craft their own rules - merit and engineering based, rather than trackside politics based - that will provide some interchangeability with FIA-GT.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by mirkob

Seems KEONIGSEGG has money problem :-(

The car company or development of the GT1 car? Wasn't Zakspeed rumoured to be involved in this GT1 project? I think these rumours are false because the Germans are developing a Chrysler 300C SRT8 touring car.

With new regulations in the pipeline it makes no sense to develop a new GT1 car.

[mirkob]

Just red: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/s...ncial-trouble/

I dont have further infos

[TWK]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

From the other GT/rules/ future thread


http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=206&Itemid=1[/I]


Not suggesting that the ACO "sit"

The cars that are running in "LM" GT classes are all basically homologated until 2011-2014 so why the rush to trash them? The ACO have a structure/class/rule change tentatively set for 2010 and with rules and clarifications coming soon to lead down that path. To jump wholesalely on the Ratel wagon is a little premature IMO. I think that the ACO need to find out what its participants ( mfg & teams) thoughts on the matter are before they just move carte blanche with SRO/FIA. There is rumored mfg interest in GT-1 and the ACO taking over the JLMC and maybe a larger Japanese presence possible in all series(?), there may very well may need to be change but the current Ratel propsals do not IMO look to be the best for "LM" series GT's or "LM" as a whole. They do not compete in the same class structure format of racing and the needs of "LM" racing are slightly different than that of just a 2 class GT format.

L.P.

And IF that "rumored GT-1" program is real, removing the FIA GT series from the potential market will kill it for certain. In the current environment most any builder will require some number of third party sales to justify the development expenditure, just as did Aston Martin. When Aston/Prodrive made its decision there were GT1s to be sold not only in ALMS, LMS, for Le Mans, and FIA GT, but GT1 classes were active in many "national" series, like Belcar and FFSA. Now nearly all of that is gone. "They" will not approve a program that will sell a half-dozen cars - maximum - over three years. So what happens then?

So, what to do? Regardless of (or because of) recent experience, trackside “performance balancing” has long been contrary to IMSA and ACO philosophy. Can those organizations and their series introduce classes similar enough to the basic Ratel-FIA structure, allowing one “design-build” within an a priori rule set? Perhaps the displacement dividing line(s) aren’t exactly the same; perhaps strict theoretical displacement-to-weight rules within the larger class envelope. It’s not our place to write those rules, but they’re possible, aren’t they? We think it has to be attempted; the Le-Mans based series simply cannot sit on the status quo.

So the ACO/IMSA need not "copy" the Ratel rules, but rather adopt something that is close enough that a manufacturer has a single design-build "envelope" in which a car can be built, then "completed" to either ACO or FIA rules. If they keep the current rules for GT1 and GT2, the disparity (and cost) between the two is just too great.

[AU N EGL]

There is rumored mfg interest in GT-1

Rumors are like ****** eveybody has one.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

The 997 is a 3.8 litre engine, 996 has the 3.6 litre. Dont care what FIA says, they never get their facts straight anyway...

Ok I think there is some confusion:

The 997 GT3 which is currently in GT2 class has a 3.8 L engine.
The new 997GT2 has a 3.6 L Turbo engine and that is the one that I think the FIA are referring to for GT1

[Spyderman]

...and for those interested, here's the link:http://www.porsche.com/usa/

[Dagobert II]

Originally Posted by mirkob

Seems KEONIGSEGG has money problem :-(

So have I!...
...and RfH,and Dome, and Spyker, and...

[Dagobert II]

Some refer to the topspeed difference between LMP1 and the GT2.

But hasn't that been always a problem? I think that Jacky Icks wasn't happy in 1969 to see two tiny red lights heading towards him on the Mulsanne Straight wich appeared to be a Fiat Abarth!

[broadrun96]

If the ACO goes to moving GT2 to GT3 spec, what would be the necessary changes to run a GT3 Cup car in the ALMS/LM? Could be good for US based teams who could afford to run in both GA and ALMS if only minor mods where needed, with the exceptions of course of some series sponsor decal deals.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

If the ACO goes to moving GT2 to GT3 spec, what would be the necessary changes to run a GT3 Cup car in the ALMS/LM?

That would depend on the rules that the ACO setups up. Impossible to say what changes would be necessary, unless you know what both sets of rules are.

[dj4monie]

After reading Ratel's pdf about his ideas of a new world's championship with the FIA's blessing, the idea might be a good idea as it is true there are no new GT1's planned by anybody and any GT2's built will run until 2010 in regional championships.

So without any crazy changes, the ALMS, ACO, FIA and possibly the JGTC/JLMS will all have GT1, GT2 production classes and GT3 for non-professional drivers.

FIA GT will be the world's championship like it was in the late 90's with at least 1 stop in North America, which ideally should be an off weekend for the ALMS GT1/GT2 teams to allow them to compete, increasing grid size to around 45-50 cars I would think...

In turn the ALMS should come over to Europe to run a race before Le Mans test days with either the LMS or FIA GT or both, if the cost cutting does allow more trans-Atlantic traveling.

Now if the ACO doesn't do anything stupid and go their own direction at least with the production classes we'll have it all. A World's Championship, 24's of Le Mans and large grids in all 3 series!

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

After reading Ratel's pdf about his ideas of a new world's championship with the FIA's blessing, the idea might be a good idea as it is true there are no new GT1's planned by anybody and any GT2's built will run until 2010 in regional championships.

So without any crazy changes, the ALMS, ACO, FIA and possibly the JGTC/JLMS will all have GT1, GT2 production classes and GT3 for non-professional drivers.

FIA GT will be the world's championship like it was in the late 90's with at least 1 stop in North America, which ideally should be an off weekend for the ALMS GT1/GT2 teams to allow them to compete, increasing grid size to around 45-50 cars I would think...

In turn the ALMS should come over to Europe to run a race before Le Mans test days with either the LMS or FIA GT or both, if the cost cutting does allow more trans-Atlantic traveling.

Now if the ACO doesn't do anything stupid and go their own direction at least with the production classes we'll have it all. A World's Championship, 24's of Le Mans and large grids in all 3 series!

So everyone seems to agree that cost-cutting is important then?

Why then is a World championship such a priority? - Particularly a world championship with 90 minute races?

What abouit the logistical costs of transporting cars, team equipment and team membes around the world - Where is the list of teams, drivers, manufacturers who are asking for this format? How many of the current teams do you think would retain their drivers for this format?

There's a massive difference between a change in the technical regs on the basis of a perceived downturn in GT1 and a wholesale range of changes designed to support a World championship.

And why the "If the ACO doesn't do anything stupid and go their own direction" comment? the ACO had alredy given their outline opinion on a way forward, there seems to have been no major consultation with them prior to this proposal, their grids in Europe are full and manufacturer interest, with massive help from the efforts of the ALMS, is looking set to boom again based on the current and proposed future ACO regs - Now who's doing something stupid?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

So everyone seems to agree that cost-cutting is important then?

Why then is a World championship such a priority? - Particularly a world championship with 90 minute races?

As we know, and you are hinting about, there is no cost cutting here, just cost reallocation.

And why the "If the ACO doesn't do anything stupid and go their own direction" comment? the ACO had alredy given their outline opinion on a way forward, there seems to have been no major consultation with them prior to this proposal, their grids in Europe are full and manufacturer interest, with massive help from the efforts of the ALMS, is looking set to boom again based on the current and proposed future ACO regs - Now who's doing something stupid?

I'm curious to see the details here, unless I've missed something. Is this simply the we need to lower costs in GT2? Has there been a statement by the ACO that they will not follow the FIA's direction?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm curious to see the details here, unless I've missed something. Is this simply the we need to lower costs in GT2? Has there been a statement by the ACO that they will not follow the FIA's direction?

ACO was invited to the FIA meeting in Paris, but they have not made any statement yet.

The last statement of ACO regarding future plans was during press conference at Le Mans. Summary:

• keep 4 classes (2 prototype + 2 GT)
• LMP1 diesel-petrol equivalence refined for 2008
• "LMP1 GTP" rules announced in November 2007
• current LMP1 fased out in 2011
• cost reduction/control in 3 lower classes (LMP2, GT1, GT2)
• mainly GT2 should be closer to road cars
• minimum weight for LMP2 = 825 kg
• from 2008 biofuel
• energy recovery solutions (electric, hydraulic, ...) will be allowed in the future

For full report see http://www.endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=3767.

[dj4monie]

Graham -

Why not a world championship?

We had one, everybody liked it...

ACO has often times thumb their nose at what "we" want as fans to what "they" want because they take a position similar to Tony George and both want to take a NASCAR approach which is to own the key race and run the series.

Yet OEM's want a presents in America this is the largest market for their product, so you can't go complete Carte Blanche or at least not without consulting IMSA/PSCR/IMSA first.

I agree with Ratel, if there no GT1 projects on the horizon and want to increase grids you can't stand by and let shhh fall where it may.

He has to be proactive!

[JAG]

LMS and ALMS are already a World Championship of sorts, you can pick and choose the best sportscar races in the world.

FIA GT is in greater competition with Euro GT/DTM/WTCC/Dutch Supercars, a World Championship is the last thing they need.

OEM's willing to run in a GT World Championship can be counted on hand, make that one finger, Corvette, even that's doubtful.

The rest are customers on tight budget's.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

And why the "If the ACO doesn't do anything stupid and go their own direction" comment? the ACO had alredy given their outline opinion on a way forward, there seems to have been no major consultation with them prior to this proposal, their grids in Europe are full and manufacturer interest, with massive help from the efforts of the ALMS, is looking set to boom again based on the current and proposed future ACO regs - Now who's doing something stupid?

Hasn't the ACO ALWAYS gone its own direction?? if the FIA wants to follow great, if not so be it.

The ACO has the LM24, LMS, JPLMS and ALMS. and I agree with Graham. So let me see, who or which Orgaization not quite GETTING IT??

[The Badger]

The ACo always didnt go its own direction ..... Group C wasnt an ACO idea nor was the 3.5 liter era , look what happened then . Im glad the ACO do their own thing and not let the Fia get too involved .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Graham -

Why not a world championship?

We had one, everybody liked it...

The question is, Who wants a GT World Championship?

The entrants? Apparently not..
The factories... umm Hasn't the FIA specifically tried to keep them out?

So, who is this for?

I agree with Ratel, if there no GT1 projects on the horizon and want to increase grids you can't stand by and let shhh fall where it may.

Who said there are no GT1 projects on the horizon? I know of at least one, so his statements are false.