Is Button good for McLaren?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

The problem with Button not being as hailed as a great like Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel comes down to a few things imo:

1. I think only a couple (or maybe even 1?) of his race wins have come without changing weather conditions. He's a master in changing weather, everyone knows that, but definitely not a master in the dry.

2. He struggled for a lot seasons and was nearly out of a F1 drive on an at least one occasion.

3. When he finally did win the title, it was not in great conditions. He simply had a completely dominant car the first half of the season, then in the second half struggled with no more wins from R7 on, while his teammate did better than him and Vettel closed in. Vettel had 5 DNF's that year, Button just one, and they were still separated by only 11 points.

4. Button vs Hamilton. I know they scored similar points, I know Button was very quick one of those years, but overall for the 3 seasons they were together Hamilton was the standout. And now Perez, who may be dumped by McLaren this year, has passed Button on track quite a number of times this season.

I wonder if Button if tiring of F1 a bit? He hasn't shown that much passion this year, I guess. Usually lets others past quite easily.

1. I agree , that since he joined McLaren his race wins have been mostly in the wet or changeable conditions. However, I'm sure 6 out of the first 7 races in 2009 were not wet races.

2. He's had a long career. Apart from when he drove for Bennaton and one season vs Hamilton, most seasons he was better than, or equal to, or comparable to most his teammates. That includes this year, and also when he was up against WDC Villeneuve.
No driver would have looked good in the dog of a Honda in 2008.

3. Button did the buisness in his WDC year. Just like many many WDCs have done in other years when they have had the "best" car. If you can slate Button's WDC year, you could do the same with Vettel, Schumacher, Mansell, Hill, Prost, Senna and any pretty much any other recent WDC you care to mention.

4 Agree that Hamilton was more eye catching, and seemed to have the upper hand in raw pace. However, the fact that Button more or less matched Hamilton points-wise shows how well he did.

Qualifying has been Buttons weak point over the last few seasons - when compared with Hamilton at kleast. The fact that hot-sho Perez is behind in the qualfying stakes this season maybe proves that there is life in the old dog yet.

[Paradise City]

I'm never sure what to put in this thread. McLaren do have a track record of occasionally putting out cars of tricky quality, Button's form can be manic and where Perez fits into the whole milieu is difficult to fully apprehend although we do know that he is very confident and very erratic. Is he a rough diamond masked by a temperamental Mclaren or is he an ugly lump throwing himself around in a fair car? I fully dunno the answer to that. But I do think Button would come to life if he had a car that suited him so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Peralta

So you can only name one accident. Don't spread crap and say too many accidents. And in fact Button ran Perez off the track in Bahrain which was deliberate so both are/were equally to blame.

Perez has ran into several drivers and/or ran them off the track throughout the season at several races, including his own teammate. Button isn't exactly the top 5 fastest current F1 drivers, and Perez is no faster than Button. At lest Button has his consistency and smoothness, Perez doesn't even have that; he's erratic at best.

McLaren have a loyal, experienced, consistent #2 driver, Button. What they need is a clear #1 silver bullet of a team leader, that is consistently fast like Vettel or Alonso. That is why McLaren has had talks with Alonso to replace Perez in the first few months of his McLaren contract.

Last year he had contact with Maldonado at the British GP, Rosberg in another race, this year he had contact with his own teammate in Bahrain, then again at Monaco with Button and Kimi, resulting in his DNF. He's currently 12th in the Championship with only 33 points, Button so far has finished every race and is several positions ahead of Perez in the Championship(9th) with almost twice as many points, 60.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Perez has ran into several drivers and/or ran them off the track throughout the season at several races, including his own teammate. Button isn't exactly the top 5 fastest current F1 drivers, and Perez is no faster than Button. At lest Button has his consistency and smoothness, Perez doesn't even have that; he's erratic at best.

McLaren have a loyal, experienced, consistent #2 driver, Button. What they need is a clear #1 silver bullet of a team leader, that is consistently fast like Vettel or Alonso. That is why McLaren has had talks with Alonso to replace Perez in the first few months of his McLaren contract.

Last year he had contact with Maldonado at the British GP, Rosberg in another race, this year he had contact with his own teammate in Bahrain, then again at Monaco with Button and Kimi, resulting in his DNF. He's currently 12th in the Championship with only 33 points, Button so far has finished every race and is several positions ahead of Perez in the Championship(9th) with almost twice as many points, 60.

Bringing up the Maldonado incident in 2012 isn't helping your cause, because it was SO obvious who was at fault for that...

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Bringing up the Maldonado incident in 2012 isn't helping your cause, because it was SO obvious who was at fault for that...

Oh? Guess that just means it didn't happen.

Perez will get replaced next year. Accept it.

[Peralta]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Oh? Guess that just means it didn't happen.

Perez will get replaced next year. Accept it.

You keep talking crap and no one is going to take you seriously here.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Peralta

You keep talking crap and no one is going to take you seriously here.

But ignoring facts will be taken seriously? Noted...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Oh? Guess that just means it didn't happen.

Perez will get replaced next year. Accept it.

Perez WILL stay at McLaren. His current performances are way ahead of JB. Do you axe a world champion? No. So why axe someone who has yet to be proven? If McLaren give Perez a good car next season then both he and JB could be legit title contenders...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Dragger

But ignoring facts will be taken seriously? Noted...

He may seem to be Mexican but he's right.

[Peralta]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

He may seem to be Mexican but he's right.

I am Mexican! What makes you say I may not be?

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Perez WILL stay at McLaren. His current performances are way ahead of JB. Do you axe a world champion? No. So why axe someone who has yet to be proven? If McLaren give Perez a good car next season then both he and JB could be legit title contenders...

Button currently has almost twice as many points as Button.

McLaren has already offered Perez's seat to Alonso earlier in the season.

Button is a former world champ, barely, but has often been slower than his teammates. He's a great smooth consistent #2 driver, and has almost twice as many points as Perez. McLaren doesn't need two #2 drivers, they need a consistently fast team leader and a Champion for the team to back. That isn't Perez or Button.

After Hamilton switch to Merc, McLaren had a short list of drivers to replace him, so they got stuck with Perez. After Perez's repeated contact, WITH HIS OWN TEAMMATE among other drivers, his erratic driving, and inconsitent pace I'm certain McLaren will replace him next year. They need a Senna, Prost, M.S., Vettel level driver.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Peralta

I am Mexican! What makes you say I may not be?

You're obviously Mexican with your blind loyalty towards Perez.

[terence]

Should the title not read Is McLaren good enough for Button?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Should the title not read Is McLaren good enough for Button?

I've already done that one...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Button currently has almost twice as many points as Button.

McLaren has already offered Perez's seat to Alonso earlier in the season.

Button is a former world champ, barely, but has often been slower than his teammates. He's a great smooth consistent #2 driver, and has almost twice as many points as Perez. McLaren doesn't need two #2 drivers, they need a consistently fast team leader and a Champion for the team to back. That isn't Perez or Button.

After Hamilton switch to Merc, McLaren had a short list of drivers to replace him, so they got stuck with Perez. After Perez's repeated contact, WITH HIS OWN TEAMMATE among other drivers, his erratic driving, and inconsitent pace I'm certain McLaren will replace him next year. They need a Senna, Prost, M.S., Vettel level driver.

What the hell do you know? Button took the WDC one round to spare despite not having the fastest car throughout the season. At the start he had the best, but by the end he didn't. But he still won it with one to go.

Alonso is better than Perez right now.

I can't quite understand how you can say that McLaren CANNOT TAKE A WDC with Button or Perez. In 2011 Button was the best driver of the lot in the second half of the season, being the second best to Vettel in the first half. He drove the best he's ever driven, and if McLaren can give him that sort of a car for a season, then Button can comprehensively destroy the likes of Hamilton - which he did.

The current lack of results is nothing to do with their current drivers. These are 2 very capable GP drivers who are only coming under stick because the team have messed up this year. Any normal year for McLaren and people would be saying "Perez is the next big thing - a bit raw, but can be refined" and "Button is AWESOME!!" because both would've won races by now if the team had have given them a good car.

Perez's mistakes have been minor this season. Yes, there's been contact, a fair bit in the early half, but he's one of the top drivers right now looking at his form, and JB is an already proven package. He's a long way from erratic right now, whilst JB would be scoring top 5s if guys didn't ram into him every corner.

By saying Perez should be sacked, I'd LOVE to hear your views of Esteban Gutierrez and Max Chilton!

If there's anyone at the forefront of McLaren who should be sacked, it's Martin Whitmarsh.

[GT6]

Well after watching the race I would say that button no longer seems to have the desire to race, he could have done better and Maclaren must be thinking about whether to retain him, yes the car is not brilliant but at the moment niether is Jensen

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well after watching the race I would say that button no longer seems to have the desire to race, he could have done better and Maclaren must be thinking about whether to retain him, yes the car is not brilliant but at the moment niether is Jensen

The last two races have been ruined by contact that has damaged his car in some way. Neither incident was his fault. In fact I'd say he's being racier than usual, looking and making plenty of overtakes that are uncharacteristically awesome.

[John Turner]

Yes, indeed, let's not allow the facts to get in the way. However, JB's problem, as it has usually been, is qualifying pace that leaves him vulnerable and I do think that he has become a little battle weary towards the end of this season dragging a car round which seems unpredictable. He has actually always been pretty good at overtaking but 'uncharacteristically awesome' is perhaps a tad OTT!

[Razzzor]

Hulkenberg to McLaren, replacing Perez?

I'm not sure there's anyone else you'd bother with, unless they can steal on-form Grosjean or Rosberg (and why would they leave to go to a slower team?) both of whom have well and truly outpaced their team mates the last couple races. Or Bianca for 2015? Di Resta's occasionally beaten by old hat Sutil, so his reputation has gone down.

There's no one else.

[John Turner]

Pretty much agree with that. If they could get Hulkenberg, that would be a good move but otherwise, realistically, they might as well stick with Perez as his form has really picked up since this thread was started.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Pretty much agree with that. If they could get Hulkenberg, that would be a good move but otherwise, realistically, they might as well stick with Perez as his form has really picked up since this thread was started.

According to this article, Quantum Motorsports want Lotus to sign Hulkenberg.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111129

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Hulkenberg to McLaren, replacing Perez?

I'm not sure there's anyone else you'd bother with, unless they can steal on-form Grosjean or Rosberg (and why would they leave to go to a slower team?) both of whom have well and truly outpaced their team mates the last couple races. Or Bianca for 2015? Di Resta's occasionally beaten by old hat Sutil, so his reputation has gone down.

There's no one else.

... except McLaren's golden prodigies, Kevin and Stoffel...

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

What the hell do you know? Button took the WDC one round to spare despite not having the fastest car throughout the season. At the start he had the best, but by the end he didn't. But he still won it with one to go.

Alonso is better than Perez right now.

I can't quite understand how you can say that McLaren CANNOT TAKE A WDC with Button or Perez. In 2011 Button was the best driver of the lot in the second half of the season, being the second best to Vettel in the first half. He drove the best he's ever driven, and if McLaren can give him that sort of a car for a season, then Button can comprehensively destroy the likes of Hamilton - which he did.

The current lack of results is nothing to do with their current drivers. These are 2 very capable GP drivers who are only coming under stick because the team have messed up this year. Any normal year for McLaren and people would be saying "Perez is the next big thing - a bit raw, but can be refined" and "Button is AWESOME!!" because both would've won races by now if the team had have given them a good car.

Perez's mistakes have been minor this season. Yes, there's been contact, a fair bit in the early half, but he's one of the top drivers right now looking at his form, and JB is an already proven package. He's a long way from erratic right now, whilst JB would be scoring top 5s if guys didn't ram into him every corner.

By saying Perez should be sacked, I'd LOVE to hear your views of Esteban Gutierrez and Max Chilton!

If there's anyone at the forefront of McLaren who should be sacked, it's Martin Whitmarsh.

Whitmarsh should be sacked, I agree.

And Button is a perfect #2 driver. He's smooth, consistent, but not too hot headed or agressive to interfere with the #1 driver. What McLaren needs is another Top Gun like Vettel, M.S., or Senna. Not Perez, who has half as many points as Button at this point. Kevin Magnussen might be a good choice. McLaren were pursuing Alonso, if things continue to fall with Alonso/Ferrari and Honda get McLaren back on form, who knows...

[steve_r]

So, Magnussen is a good as Vettel, Schumacher and Prost?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by steve_r

So, Magnussen is a good as Vettel, Schumacher and Prost?

You never know, but given the way he utterly dominated the second half of the season with a grid with a lot of talent, I'd rate him above a few f1 drivers already. He's driven nicely for McLaren as a test driver so far (fastest in Silverstone's day 1, when trying to be consistent and get tyre data) so I'd rate him highly.