Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[zefarelly]

I used to have car/trailer/toolbox insurance but canned it some years ago as it wasn't enough to cover the car and didn't cover everything I felt I needed . . . Now I mot/tax and insure the cortina as a road car. . Have never insured it for racing, but would if I ever did certain events again.

BoT . . . could you drive your car on the ferry, wife/mate drives tow car, into France, then hire/borrow a trailer from a French Friend ? (rental/hire business opportunity!) tool kit, spare wheels is standard car fitmnt in the boot . . . . obviously won't work if you're intent on taking an Artic and a fully fitted kitchen in a giant marquee, but not all of us 'need' that.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

I suspect that in order to pass through with a car on a trailer using a V5C, you will also need a green card which is what they mean by needing insurance. You can then show intent to use on the road and thus the car isnt goods.

You will also need the same for your paddock bike too

Blimey, does this mean I've got to buy a paddock bike now?

[Mike Harte]

Here's a question on a hypothetical car. Let's assume for the purpose of this question that Lairy Canary was a new build bodyshell on a new build chassis, and because it was never intended to run on public roads, it was not registered with DVLA and therefore does not have a V5C. Is it therefore possible to obtain a green card as you couldn't insure it in the normal way by dealing with a company like Direct Line?

And how are private individuals, like our old friend Mike, who build their own machines, possibly in their home garage, supposed to provide paperwork showing the value of the car when it may well have been built in their spare time. How do you calculate the time costs that Graham puts in to creating and fettling his Lola T492, when he does it in his spare time?

[Peter Mallett]

I think it falls under point 3 in this post.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=62

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Blimey, does this mean I've got to buy a paddock bike now?

Nope, but I find it a long way to carry the beer and BBQ to Rivage when not driving in the 6 hour!!!

[Peter Mallett]

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

but not all of us 'need' that.

I can't answer your question and dont know about your real needs either. But, if there's a company I can safely recommend its Transport Prevost.
They have a huge know how in transportation of all types of cars, from car makers prototypes, to very rare race cars including average ones. Truck drivers are well trained, artics are all time monitored.
Yes its French but more serious than I can describe. May be too expensive for an amateur having one car only, but worth to ask for a fair deal in case of several. I'm not on commission, of course, but all the serious preps use them. What is difficult here, is mutualism of this kind of service, but its all about our mentality…
https://www.prevost-transports.com

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Here's a question on a hypothetical car. Let's assume for the purpose of this question that Lairy Canary was a new build bodyshell on a new build chassis, and because it was never intended to run on public roads, it was not registered with DVLA and therefore does not have a V5C. Is it therefore possible to obtain a green card as you couldn't insure it in the normal way by dealing with a company like Direct Line?

And how are private individuals, like our old friend Mike, who build their own machines, possibly in their home garage, supposed to provide paperwork showing the value of the car when it may well have been built in their spare time. How do you calculate the time costs that Graham puts in to creating and fettling his Lola T492, when he does it in his spare time?

You can insure a vehicle against the VIN number - I have done this when importing a new motorhome privately. So give your new build a hypothetical VIN.
As to values, either use an Owners Club or a professional vehicle valuer.

[Lancsbreaker]

I foresee a small boost in the values of car remains that still have a V5, so that they can "donate" their identity to a race car for shipment purposes. For example our race 75 has no VIN or Registration ID. I presume at some point in the past it was road-registered, but I have no idea as we bought it as a race car and it had been such for a long time.



As it happens I doubt we can afford to go to Spa with CSCC, tempting though it would be,but if we were able to, I do have a trackday prepared but road registered 75 in my unit, and I can easily imagine a situation where its number plates might fall off and be magnetically attracted to the race car............

[bella]

Originally Posted by Newall Andy

I did have invoices for the parts I took out yes and to be honest I put my name on both sides of the Cobra so I could tell them I owned it. It’s not road registered so they can’t find the owner through DVLA.
Bit grey I know but as it happened no one was interested.
Maybe in the middle of the summer when we are all returning from Spa they might take more interest, but then they are all under staffed.

Did I get lucky ? Time will tell.
A

andy, quick one - were you running the van and trailer on british plates?

my humble opinion is that once the french have got their hi viz a bit dirty and run out of motivation we'll only see race trucks (for the novelty factor) and dodgy looking obvious export combos tugged for paperwork. so pretty much as it was before the end of last year.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

So give your new build a hypothetical VIN.

That's what is done on many replicas, Capris built not far from Stockport for instance.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I can easily imagine a situation where its number plates might fall off and be magnetically attracted to the race car.…

Can believe what I'm reading, Richard! Serious?! Next step will bring back the half potato thingy, I presume…

[kickstart]

But lets say you go to the Spa 6 hours and bring spares, tools, maybe spare gearbox, set of wheels etc, do I understand correctly that you would need a carnet for those items in any event and hence it will probably be cheaper to put the race car on the carnet too as I imagine it will cost a bit to insure for road use, a full race 60's car - hopefully I am wrong about that.
Last time I enquired about road insurance for my car I told them it was a race car and that opened up a million questions and a crazy price so I quickly gave up on the idea. I presume others may think about just insuring the car as standard which would reduce the costs substantially but may cause its own problems.
Fun times...

[midgetman]

I've no doubt that the insurance industry is already licking its quills and drawing up something as we speak

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Paul D]

My personal opinion, based on nothing grander than gut feeling, is that this is all going to turn out to be a storm in a teacup.

I think the novelty of checking carnets, paperwork, and looking in the back of everyone's van to see it all matches will soon fizzle out. At the end of the day, once they've 'made their point' by making things tricky for a while, who the hell's gonna be interested in checking to make sure that you're bringing back all the spanners you went out with? Or that you haven't left a set of wheels behind that you had when you left? Does anyone really see them checking VIN or ID numbers on race cars to make sure you're returning with the same car with which you left?

If it's obvious to them that you're moving stuff commercially, then that's another ball game, of course, but for those of us who are plainly just taking our car to a race in Europe as a hobby, I really cannot see them being arsed after the initial 'rubbing our noses in it for leaving' period.

The deal is for no tariffs as I understand it, so what's the point? I just don't see it happening in the long term.

Of course, I may well be proved wrong... it is, as I said, just a feeling I have. Only time will tell.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Paul D

My personal opinion, based on nothing grander than gut feeling, is that this is all going to turn out to be a storm in a teacup.

I think the novelty of checking carnets, paperwork, and looking in the back of everyone's van to see it all matches will soon fizzle out. At the end of the day, once they've 'made their point' by making things tricky for a while, who the hell's gonna be interested in checking to make sure that you're bringing back all the spanners you went out with? Or that you haven't left a set of wheels behind that you had when you left? Does anyone really see them checking VIN or ID numbers on race cars to make sure you're returning with the same car with which you left?

If it's obvious to them that you're moving stuff commercially, then that's another ball game, of course, but for those of us who are plainly just taking our car to a race in Europe as a hobby, I really cannot see them being arsed after the initial 'rubbing our noses in it for leaving' period.

The deal is for no tariffs as I understand it, so what's the point? I just don't see it happening in the long term.

Of course, I may well be proved wrong... it is, as I said, just a feeling I have. Only time will tell.

Its just turning the clocks back 15yrs or so.When at Cambridge Motorsport we had all of the hassle about Carnet etc.Having various cars from other European owners seemed to be asking for port problems.After getting all paperwork completed and driving down to Dover,waiting to hear what would be inspected,we were pleasantly surprised by never having any loads inspected.Im sure this is just a storm as suggested.Cant imagine down trodden port officials being too keen on long days.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I've no doubt that the insurance industry is already licking its quills and drawing up something as we speak

Nothing new, Max. MY first 911 was a ST replica, I was insured by Lloyds company it was mid seventies.
You have now several brokers offering various coverages, theft, incendie, damages during transportation, race, full or partial damages, rolling chassis and so on.
My mate who wrecked his E Type during Tour Auto was very happy he followed my advice before the race.
Up to you to study the different packages and chose, or not, what is the best for you and/or customer."L'assurance semble toujours trop chère avant l'accident" as we say.

[midgetman]

I was thinking more of a club racers' special Gerard. Something on the lines of "less than 20 miles restricted mileage" so that it's covered if it has to be rolled off the trailer etc. Or whatever the minimum cover to avoid a carnet is.



Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Gerard C]

OK, I see. If you dont go abroad, no carnet needed, yes?
Should you need "les coordonnées" of the broker we use and are rather satisfied with, throw me a PM, you're always welcome to. Then you can study the different offers. Just a warning, if you allow me: if you ask for a quote, every single data you give will be recorded and will join thousands of others… See what I mean?

Insurance world is tricky and whatever the number of brokers, at the end of the day there are few companies doing what is called "ré-assurance". Like a bottle neck in your words, may be? Or: finally all in the same basket?

[midgetman]

Yes Gerard that's what I meant, an insurance in name only that will cover the legal requirements.

My business is insured through Reis Motorsport Insurance, they certainly understand all the tricky bits of motor sport more than "ordinary" brokers. I think they may be a bit more expensive than some, especially for van insurance, but it is all motor sport centred and I know some.policies don't cover "in paddock" problems. I'm happy with the service and level of cover, I'm sure they'll be on top of this situation.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Peter Mallett]

I think we may be confusing insurances.

The insurance we need for the carnet, which is provided by the chambers of commerce, is to cover customs costs if we breach the carnet requirements. So, as I understand it, you have a bond or an insurance.

To get around the carnet, if your car is road registered you can insure it as a road car and take the green card.

[andy97]

The CSCC double header (inc a race in each direction) at Knockhill in May is looking far more likely than Spa in June!
I don’t think we need Carnets for Scotland......yet.

[kickstart]

I tend to think that this will be a bit of a storm in a teacup but and here's the catch if you are the one stopped without the right documents then I would guess you either won't go to Europe to race or if its on the way back then I assume a hefty fine if not seizure of the goods ?
Personally I just would not be prepared to risk it and it sounds like Euro events will cost an additional £500/£700 but the upside is that the Carnet can be used for multiple trips

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'm happy with the service and level of cover, I'm sure they'll be on top of this situation.

If you're happy with a long term supplier there's absolutely no reason to change. La fidélité en affaires est une bonne chose. On sait ce que l'on quitte mais pas ce que l'on va trouver. Right? We have the same point of view I think.
I put Reis address in my records, thanks.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by kickstart

I tend to think that this will be a bit of a storm in a teacup but and here's the catch if you are the one stopped without the right documents then I would guess you either won't go to Europe to race or if its on the way back then I assume a hefty fine if not seizure of the goods ?
Personally I just would not be prepared to risk it and it sounds like Euro events will cost an additional £500/£700 but the upside is that the Carnet can be used for multiple trips

I think you are probably right, Nigel, and things will settle down in time. The regular European racer will probably just be able to absorb it and one carnet will cover a season, but for the many club racers who just do one event a year at, say, Spa, Zandvoort or Croix an additional £500-700 on top will be the difference between going to Europe and not.

Let’s face it, an increasing number of club series had one overseas event a year in their calendar and for many it was the highlight of the year. That may end up stopping for many. A shame but c’est la vie, as they say in Peckham.