Yellow Flags

[dtype38]

Quite.... If I was stuck by the edge of the track I'd go for the red flag right away. If I was having a great race and saw someone else stuck by the edge of the track I'd probably say "safe as houses - lets keep going!"

[Woolley]

Aything between you and the impact is a bonus should it happen, but the point of this thread is surely that it shouldn't happen. Same goes for 'sitting waiting for your car to be hit'. Why? If everyone takes note of the flags, it's not going to get hit. That's what the flags are for.

Flag waving is an art, and there are huge variations in the way a yellow may be waved. A gently wave means 'the car's well away from the track, but there's people in attendance, make sure you do't go off and I'm waving it partly in order to extend the yellow zone to make sure you've got plenty of time to notice it and react accordingly.' If it's being waved furiously it means 'There's someone or something in a very hittable position, maybe the middle of the track. Slow down a lot and be prepared to take evasive action.'

[EvilPumpkin]

Anyway, getting back to yellow flags, it's also important for a flagger to know when a flag should and shouldn't go out/in.

One memory that will always stay with me is the day I (well I'm pretty sure) actually caused an accident with a yellow flag. I was still pretty inexperienced and I withdrew a yellow flag because the incident had cleared. however, I withdrew it just as the main pack were coming into my flag sector. The drivers at the front were too close to see it come in and the drivers at the back floored it. Ended up with a big pile up. Fortunately, no-one got hurt and no cars were seriously damaged, but it taught me a very important lesson.

Now I won't always withdraw the yellow just because the track is clear - if I'm faced with a similar situation - or with just a couple of cars that are closely racing for position - I'll hold off on withdrawing the flag until they're through.

For me, it was learn by experience. However, it's always something I teach anyone I'm training to flag.

[Notso Swift]

In Australia, fo rthe last 10 years or so, it has been compulsory fro a driver to do a day on the flags to get a licence upgrade from C3 to C4 (Race Probationalty to National Race)
I can't believe that there is not a similar system in place by the RACMSA. It really does foster a positive relationship between competitrs and the guys on the corners.
Another thing that every steward hands out if some one does pass under yelllows (as a penalty, often combined with a financial penalty) is a day on the flags.
Anyway just my thoughts, maybe someone should push it up the line

[Stephen Green]

Hi Alf, I'm close to Brands and Lydden so if either of those venues suit, let me have a few dates and I will arrange tickets etc.

[alf]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Hi Alf, I'm close to Brands and Lydden so if either of those venues suit, let me have a few dates and I will arrange tickets etc.

Hi Mr green
sorry I am a lot further north, perhaps Oulton or Donington?
thanks for your trouble

[Stephen Green]

If you PM me your e-mail address I will pass it to a colleague at Oulton who would be delighted to have you with her marshalling for a day (or more if you wish).

[GordonG]

Speed of waving *does* make a difference to a driver (speaking as one myself). If you have time to register that it is a flag and it is being waved you have time to register how fast it is being waved. Otherwise it might just as well have been a yellow Tshirt on a speccie.

And if you're driving past a flag point at 100+ mph, the speed of the marshal's wrist isnt going to make a difference to whether you see it or not!

Oh, and BTW, the previous post about not bringing the yellow if the incident clears while a group of cars is passing the flag point until they have passed? Valid and sensible, but I trust then that the guy waving the green on the next post is keeping an eye on where you bring the yellow in rather than the incident? Otherwise in theory you might have half the group having passed a yellow and not a green and driving the rest of the race under yellows. That particular theory doesnt work and I work on the basis that if I've passed a yellow, passed the incident (or where it was) and there's not a yellow on the next post then I;m racing again. If there was another incident round the next corner then the second post would also be under yellow.

G

[dtype38]

From a drivers point of view, I'd say that the "amount" of yellow is more important than the speed its waved at. If you come up to a corner and see a sea of waving yellow flags you get the impression that there's an M25 pile up just round the bend. A single flag against brightly coloured advertising banners and waving trees... well you get the idea. Even two waved yellows in the drivers line of site at the same time gives a much bigger impression. This could be two marshalls at the same post both waving a yellow, or simply because two posts just before the accident line up visually, eg a stationary yellow on the nearer post on the inside of a bend, with a waved a bit further away on the outside.

Just out of interest, is it part of a marshalls training to drive (or be driven) around a track at high speed and be shown what correctly and incorrectly displayed flags look like from a drivers eye view? If not, then it would be nice if some of the race schools were to offer this service. The reverse of that, of course, is how long its going to be before the optional days marshalling for a signature on a National B licence becomes mandatory!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by GordonG

Oh, and BTW, the previous post about not bringing the yellow if the incident clears while a group of cars is passing the flag point until they have passed? Valid and sensible, but I trust then that the guy waving the green on the next post is keeping an eye on where you bring the yellow in rather than the incident?

Provided there is clear visibility between the flagposts (sadly not always the case) then the next post should show green to every driver who saw the yellow. That's why you'll usually see greens staying out even though the yellow has been withdrawn.

[midgetman]

Well, after a lot of posts mired in semi-abuse, I think that comments like Stephen's above mean some excellent ideas come out of our ramblings.

One respectful question to Woolley though: Where in the Blue Book does he find a definition of different speeds of waving? How can I judge the speed? Is there an RPM tolerance for his arm speed? Do I have to make allowance for the age of the waver - i.e. it looks like a slow arm wave, but in fact he's 103 and it's as fast as he can manage?

Now given that we as drivers have to calculate the wave speed, can I expect a multi-stage reduction in my speed to be accepted? i.e Slow wave = reduce speed by 5%, now perfectly within my safety zone, I KNOW I can get by without crashing. Fast wave = 25% reduction in speed, to me as driver it seems like crawling along (if you haven't done this, think coming off a motorway) but to outside observer it's still 70+ mph.

Now, imagine I race regularly with Woolley as my flaggie but go to a different circuit. Come round the corner, slow waved flag but I only back off a little bit because that's what Woolley does, and it means that the car's almost safe. Road's blocked and I pile in. Stand up in front of CoC "but it was a slow waved flag, guv, that means the track's not blocked". Am I going to be patted on the head and told the flaggie was in the wrong? I think not.

By all means lobby the MSA to have the rules changed to allow "slow" and "fast" waves but please, don't go off on your own until it's in the BB.

FWIW I think yellow flag infringements should be draconianally punished until everyone starts to behave themselves. Won't take long. BUT - remember mistakes are made both off and on the bank, and maybe if several punishments are meted out at the same spot, the reasons should be investigated.

[Stephen Green]

Good points Carsten. I have marshalled in Germany so know the standard of local marshals is very high.

The problem of people in the crowd wearing colours that clash with flags is never ending and there is little we can do to change it I'm afraid. It's obviously a golden rule that marshals don't wear clothing that could be interpreted as a flag signal. Maybe we should speak to the commentators and ask them if they could make PA announcements, especially at big meetings, for spectators not to stand near marshals posts if they are wearing anything bright yellow or red?

[goforit500]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Bob, thanks for your comments. You will be glad to know that we are asked not to lead drivers away by the arm for that very reason. Under normal circumstances we would remain reasonably close to the driver, especially if there has been a heavy impact, just as a matter of safety. I find it often breaks the ice if I offer the driver a drink of water as he is normally pretty thirsty after racing.

Can you supplement that with a mandatory packet of fags at every post ??

After ooooo...lots of years racing I finally managed to pull off at a well stocked post for the first time ever this season !! Thanks to the guys on the outside of Coram :-)

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by goforit500

Can you supplement that with a mandatory packet of fags at every post ??

Oh so it's you that keeps bumming fags off me!

[goforit500]

I'll remember that EP !! Are you doing Phoenix ??

Anyway - This thread has descended into what appears to be entrenched positions and there have been few practical suggestions to IMPROVING what is a subjective and tricky situation..So heres my 2p...

1. Paint the damn flag posts an bright colour so us stoopid drivers know where they are - I've been at it for a while and I couldn't tell you were every post is at every circuit

2. Put a white background up behind the post so the flags are well contrasted - A green flag at Druids at Oulton during summer, for example, will never be seen, or indeed, a yellow during the autumn months

3. Grow up folks !! Marshals are volunteers and do what they do out of love for the sport - As do all the others up to and including the CoC. They are human, and humans make mistakes and misjudgements - Learn to live with it or take up golf

[Locost47]

Can we perhaps petition the MSA to make a day's marshalling part of the requirement for upgrading from National B, or removing the novice cross? It might be necessary to go for the second option because some club racers don't bother upgrading their licence to Nat A as you have to pay more for something you may not use.

At the same time could they do high-speed rides in the course car at marshall training days? Ok it's not the same as at racing speeds but it could go some way to giving them the impression of what can and can't be seen.

I'd happily volunteer to give flaggies a ride in my car but i've no room for a 2nd seat and i can't go fast enough to make it worthwhile!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

With regard to marshals doing high speed laps, no it's not a part of any training. The closest we would come to that would be if we were to try it out at one of the MSV marshals track days where drivers often offer to come along and give 'hot laps' as a thank you for our help through the year.

Passenger rides, whatever the speed, don't really tell the whole story. As a passenger you have time to look around, as a driver you don't. One of the things that surprised me on the Oulton track day last year, driving moderately quickly, was just how short a time some of the flag points were actually in my line of sight; conversely, one or two flag points are much more visible than I would have expected. As a passenger, even in very quick cars, I had time to see which glag points were manned & who the marshal was.....

[goforit500]

Making the day on the banks mandatory has been discussed endlessly on these pages. I get the impression that some marshals don't want bodies out there that are in any way forced to be there - Steps back from lighted blue touchpaper :-)

While I sympathise with that position, I wholly agree with you that us lot should HAVE to spend time on post. I've done it once of my own free will and will be back to do it again - I can honestly say that my perception of what marshals do, the split second decisions and the pressure they work under has to be experienced to appreciate it. They are also generally a good bunch, there to enjoy the company of like-minded people and to contribute to the sport they love....

I'd be all in favour of a mandatory day of marshaling for ALL licence holders annually - If we knew we had to do it it would become an accepted part of our racing season

[Dave Brand]

[QUOTE=Locost47]Can we perhaps petition the MSA to make a day's marshalling part of the requirement for upgrading from National B, or removing the novice cross? [ /QUOTE]

Or just persuade more drivers to take the existing option of doing a day's marshalling? Maybe more championships should follow the Caterham example & give points for a day's marshalling.

[goforit500]

Don't think I'd agree with that Dave....

Points should be won, not awarded.

Perhaps a points deduction for those that don't do a day would be better :-)

My point is that forcing a change through would meet with opposition but it would become accepted...

It might even become a social focal point for some chapionships - Could you imagine the entire Ford Saloon lot at a circuit for 48 hours without any cars or racing to worry about - That would be a SERIOUS event - Probably worthy of it's very own medical cover and CoC !!!! Messy !!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Now, imagine I race regularly with Woolley as my flaggie but go to a different circuit. Come round the corner, slow waved flag but I only back off a little bit because that's what Woolley does, and it means that the car's almost safe. Road's blocked and I pile in.

If you read the Blue book, rule J:16.1 (f) says, Yellow flag-waved, Great danger, slow down considerably. Be prepared to change from the projected racing line or take other evasive action including stopping..............

That doesn't mean, Slow a bit cos my mate is a flaggie.
So there isn't an argument really is there, you and everyone else should be following the rules, especially as it is quite often me that is pointing the wrong way, stationary on a blind bend, Druids on Saturday springs to mind.

[goforit500]

Originally Posted by falcemob

....especially as it is quite often me that is pointing the wrong way, stationary on a blind bend, Druids on Saturday springs to mind.

Been there, done that Falce !! Lonely old spot that, innit

[EvilPumpkin]

I've moved all the non-flag related stuff to a new thread here as it's obviously a conversation that people want to have, but it's a shame to derail this one.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by falcemob

If you read the Blue book, rule J:16.1 (f) says, Yellow flag-waved, Great danger, slow down considerably. Be prepared to change from the projected racing line or take other evasive action including stopping..............

That doesn't mean, Slow a bit cos my mate is a flaggie.
So there isn't an argument really is there, you and everyone else should be following the rules, especially as it is quite often me that is pointing the wrong way, stationary on a blind bend, Druids on Saturday springs to mind.

Would it be safe to say though that if you see a flagger madly waving a yellow and probably looking fairly frantic, that's going to communicate a greater sense of urgency and danger - but will you actually notice that or do you just see the flag from the corner of your eye?

[Peter Mallett]

Well,

You do notice them (or at my speeds you do) and you can tell whether they are waved or static. Indeed a yellow is always "waved" for the first lap or two and it stays in that agitated state until the danger has either been removed or everybody is aware of the obstacle and can safely pass at reduced speed. After a few laps the yellow is generally withdrawn because if there is a car at trackside we all know where it is.