[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Once the rules-makers start trying to mandate the appearance of cars it is time to watch a new series.

Time to watch another series.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Time to watch another series.

True. The fins have been here since 2011.

Heres a nice picture

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Radiators have to be at the front of the car?

Given the discussion about front crash structures going on now, which are a lot easier to implement when the radiators are at the side, is this really a wise way to go?

[TF110]

Some interesting comments on Toyota Europe's blog...
http://blog.toyota.eu/2014/01/30/int...-ts040-hybrid/

With no limits on when the hybrid boost can be used and double the amount of boost available, teams have a lot more to play with in 2014.

TOYOTA Racing will use this, hopefully to great effect, with a four-wheel drive hybrid system delivering substantially more power than the 300hp of boost provided to the rear wheels in 2013.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by cmk

Given the discussion about front crash structures going on now, which are a lot easier to implement when the radiators are at the side, is this really a wise way to go?

Would it make them too unsafe? As long as the crash test remained the same it should be alright. You may have a valid point, but I'd base nothing on the current discussion on crash structures going on right now.

[TF110]

With front radiators they may as well put the engine up there as well. Theyd probably look like the Panoz lmp1

[JoestForEver]

The Panoz LMP1 was quick, particularly in the rain. Recalling the pole sitting flawless win at Nurburgring 2000.

[Breinig]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

The Panoz LMP1 was quick, particularly in the rain. Recalling the pole sitting flawless win at Nurburgring 2000.

True. Still remember Klaus Graf leading the race for a lap or two during the rain at the LM 24h in 2001!

Loved that car!

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Originally Posted by TF110

With front radiators they may as well put the engine up there as well. Theyd probably look like the Panoz lmp1

So the Toyota TS040 would have an engine in the front of the car...

[Adam43]

Sorry? Not sure how you got that?

We've wandered a little off topic, I'm happy to move the general P1 styling/rules discussion to its own thread? Just shout...

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sorry? Not sure how you got that?

We've wandered a little off topic, I'm happy to move the general P1 styling/rules discussion to its own thread? Just shout...

Never mind.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by TheNo1F1Fan

Never mind.

Just a hypothetical "what if"... the radiators were in front of the cockpit...

News on Toyotas future, Akio Toyoda said no to wrc till at least the new regs in 2017. Perhaps their future in the wec is bright. He also said no to F1 as long as hes president He also talked about a restructuring in Toyotas motorsport activities. More streamlined management of domestic and foreign projects.

[gustavobamba]

How much power could we expect from the 2 hybrid system´s???

400-500 bhp!!!!!?

If they manage to develop the same power from last year +- 530 bhp ( i don´t have sure of that number!!!) + 2 hybrid …let´s say 400 bhp we are talking in 930 bhp total power ..uaaauuu!!

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Originally Posted by TF110

Just a hypothetical "what if"... the radiators were in front of the cockpit...

News on Toyotas future, Akio Toyoda said no to wrc till at least the new regs in 2017. Perhaps their future in the wec is bright. He also said no to F1 as long as hes president He also talked about a restructuring in Toyotas motorsport activities. More streamlined management of domestic and foreign projects.

Oh.

[Bandicoot17]

That'd be nuts coming off the corners.


Question: With the front and rear hybrid option can drivers or the team split varying amounts of power across the systems?
Say they go for 8MJ total hybrid power, can they split it by different amounts front rear per track or even change it on the fly depending on weather conditions etc?

Or is there something in the regs stopping this?

[deggis]

Curiously Sarrazin is still going start testing the WRC car.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112372

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Question: With the front and rear hybrid option can drivers or the team split varying amounts of power across the systems?
Say they go for 8MJ total hybrid power, can they split it by different amounts front rear per track or even change it on the fly depending on weather conditions etc?

Or is there something in the regs stopping this?

Nothing stopping it as far as I can tell, the only limitation is that the total ERS energy released per lap should not exceed 2, 4, 6 or 8 MJ, so I suspect the distribution between front and rear axles is free and adjustable.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Nothing stopping it as far as I can tell, the only limitation is that the total ERS energy released per lap should not exceed 2, 4, 6 or 8 MJ, so I suspect the distribution between front and rear axles is free and adjustable.

From the press release of Toyota Europe that I linked to, they claimed more than the 300hp from 2013. Last year the total for LeMans was 3.5MJ per lap. If theyre saying 'double' that (7mj) its either the 6 or 8MJ option. With the 6MJ option, thats 1.7x the current power, or ~515hp. The 8MJ option is 2.28x the current power, or ~685hp. Thats assuming they stay with the same amount of release time, I think its around 2.3 seconds. So they could do that in the whole lap something like 7 times in 2013 for full release. But theres no limit on where to release hybrid energy this year. So if there was around 16-17 seconds of boost in 2013 of 300hp, you can figure out how much time per lap they could use 6MJ; 27-28 seconds @300hp or 8MJ; 36-37 seconds @300hp!

[Flo aus N]

well, if you calculate at least 550 bhp from the combustion engine (which is btw very pesimistic from what i have heared. All engine manufactures are very well pleased with the amount of the Power they can produce with the given fuel flows...) and 2x300 bhp while boosting, than you have a little bit over 1100 bhp while boosting

Michelin claimend that they will produce tires which have to carry on over 1100 hbp (over 4 wheels ) and these tremendous horsepowers suits very well to the times, Audi whrere doing in december with their new R18 So these new cars will be as fast as 2013, maybe a little bit faster

[vincegail]

I really hope so, but don't forget those extra horsies are only available a small part of the lap, while the aerodynamical disadvantages of the 2014-spec cars compared to the 2013 ones last the whole lap!

[MyNameIsNigel]

It has already been speculated some time ago in Racecar Engineering that the twin ERS-K on the Toyota could develop a combined power output of the order of 450kW (approx. 600 HP), which would be by far sufficient to harvest more than 8MJ per lap at LM. That would amount to little less than 18sec of boost if they use both MGUs to release the maximum of 8MJ allowed by the rules.

Now, Toyota could opt to release energy exclusively at the front (or at the back as the case may be), in effect doubling the boost duration with half the available power (assuming two MGUs each developing the same power output).

The twin ERS-K will however also increase cooling demands I suspect. I am looking forward to seeing how Toyota will package this system and the related cooling systems.

[Flo aus N]

Originally Posted by vincegail

I really hope so, but don't forget those extra horsies are only available a small part of the lap, while the aerodynamical disadvantages of the 2014-spec cars compared to the 2013 ones last the whole lap!

disadvantge ? With the allowing of the wing profiles at the front and the full widht rear wing, the aerodynamic efficiency should get a little bit better.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by vincegail

I really hope so, but don't forget those extra horsies are only available a small part of the lap, while the aerodynamical disadvantages of the 2014-spec cars compared to the 2013 ones last the whole lap!

True, but they'll still be able to reach their terminal velocity far quicker this way. Add to that the smaller frontal area and consequently lower drag coëfficient and we might just see some laprecords being broken...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

It has already been speculated some time ago in Racecar Engineering that the twin ERS-K on the Toyota could develop a combined power output of the order of 450kW (approx. 600 HP), which would be by far sufficient to harvest more than 8MJ per lap at LM. That would amount to little less than 18sec of boost if they use both MGUs to release the maximum of 8MJ allowed by the rules.

Now, Toyota could opt to release energy exclusively at the front (or at the back as the case may be), in effect doubling the boost duration with half the available power (assuming two MGUs each developing the same power output).

The twin ERS-K will however also increase cooling demands I suspect. I am looking forward to seeing how Toyota will package this system and the related cooling systems.

Fortunately for Toyota theyve had near 7 or 8 years to develop the supercapacitor. They were making 300hp on their full releases of around 2.2/2.3 seconds. So double that- 7MJ, they could do 300hp for a full release of 4.5 seconds going by the current formula of 7 'release zones'. 7 x 4.5 = 31.5 seconds of 300hp per lap. Thats conservative... if they go 8MJ option they can go almost 36-37 seconds per lap on the 300hp boost. You can see why theyre quietly confident.

[MyNameIsNigel]

It is reasonable to expect that the combined ERS-K + ERS-H to be used by Audi and Porsche will also be able to recover energy in excess of 8MJ per lap at LM and that they are likely to use an MGU at the front with a power of the order of 225 kW (300 HP), equating to less than 36sec of hybrid boost.

If Toyota do opt for an energy release via the two MGUs at the front and at the back, the TS040 is going to be massively quicker than the competition exiting corners. That will be interesting to watch and I wonder how the drivers (and tires) will cope with double the power output when the ERS kicks in.

Assuming however that Toyota opt for a more "conservative" energy release strategy using only one MGU (e.g. at the front), I would expect that we will not see major differences between the trio of manufacturers as far as ERS usage is concerned.

In any event, engine/fuel efficiency is going to play a major role and it remains to be seen if Toyota are confident that they can achieve the expected efficiency targets. Not so long ago, we heard them complaining about this issue.