[Official] Singapore Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 16 of 23

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed, If you don't plan to (or find you can't) make the corner, you can pass lots of people. However I don't think that was Hamilton's intention, you yourself asked whether he did it on purpose and said no. I also don't think the pass was earned unfairly either, instead Hamilton was being over ambitious.

I've watched the start again, this includes the aerial shot of the grid and Martin Brundle says he thought Hamilton was under control but had nowhere to go, as Russell had claimed the apex.

I think we are saying the same thing here? The only part that I am unsure about is the "earned unfairly" part. To be clear, I don't think the pass should have stood for the reasons I mentioned. I also don't think Lewis planned this in advance. As I said he made an attempt, did manage to get ahead, but in a way that would not have been successful. So the pass was rightly determined to not have been executed to the required standards.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Perez does seem to be chief whinger amongst a whole gridful of wingers at the moment. And really Markogate was blown out of all proportion. If Marko had ascribed the same characteristic to (say) George Russell "because he is English", would there have been the same fuss?

It's a good point to make. There is somewhat of a double standard going on, but I don't think it is fully a double standard as it is a complex topic.

There seems to be rules as who you can punch at and if it is OK or not. If your target is in a position of power (i.e. economically, militarily, etc.), then punching up at them seems to be socially acceptable. If if someone is on the other end of that scale, then punching down is not OK.

So for example, if some feel the USA is in a position of power then you can make comments such as "Americans are lazy and have short attention spans" and generally get away with it. Not that I agree with that generalization and I am offended when I hear it (as an American).

But lets say that some South American countries (or the entire region as a whole) may be further down on this scale. So comments like what Marko did (even if he got the geography wrong) is not acceptable. It's punching down.

Even putting countries or regions on this scale is probably not appropriate. It is just another way to rank "good vs. bad" and allow for the punch up vs. down logic.

So a comment about George being "English" may not be viewed as hurtful as that might be punching up or maybe sideways? (Marko might still think he is punching down )

And we here will commonly call out Ferrari for being a trainwreck as they are "Italian". Is that OK? We act like it is (and I expect I can find an example of me being guilty of this if I look for it). But in the end, none of these derogatory generalizations are healthy or should be acceptable. But at the same time the world is not a homogenous place. There are real differences that can be affixed to cultural and/or geography. And to apply those pros/cons in discussions without seeming to be a bigot is very hard to do.

A good example of cultural differences having real world impacts is the relationship between a superior and subordinate in commercial aircraft cockpits. This is a real issue that has been studied. In short, cultures that make it hard for a subordinate (co-pilot) to express disagreement with a superior (pilot) results in accidents that could be avoided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact...viation_safety

So as we circle back around, does that mean it is OK for someone like Marko to say what he said? Is what he was saying accurate? I think for most, we realize that it is likely that Marko was saying what he was saying with malicious intent. It's like the quote about pornography. It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. His comments was meant to be derogatory.

But lets say he didn't mean it to be derogatory. Lets pretend there was some data to back up his assertions. Then it falls into the next trap that you just don't talk about some things due to the larger social contract reasons. In short, don't say it as there is no way to say it without looking like an idiot.

I don't know what the right answer is here. What I do feel relatively confident on (even if it's just a personal opinion) is that Marko is an idiot, likely a bigot and what he said regarding Perez deserved the level of outrage it received.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think we are saying the same thing here? The only part that I am unsure about is the "earned unfairly" part. To be clear, I don't think the pass should have stood for the reasons I mentioned. I also don't think Lewis planned this in advance. As I said he made an attempt, did manage to get ahead, but in a way that would not have been successful. So the pass was rightly determined to not have been executed to the required standards.


It's a good point to make. There is somewhat of a double standard going on, but I don't think it is fully a double standard as it is a complex topic.

There seems to be rules as who you can punch at and if it is OK or not. If your target is in a position of power (i.e. economically, militarily, etc.), then punching up at them seems to be socially acceptable. If if someone is on the other end of that scale, then punching down is not OK.

So for example, if some feel the USA is in a position of power then you can make comments such as "Americans are lazy and have short attention spans" and generally get away with it. Not that I agree with that generalization and I am offended when I hear it (as an American).

But lets say that some South American countries (or the entire region as a whole) may be further down on this scale. So comments like what Marko did (even if he got the geography wrong) is not acceptable. It's punching down.

Even putting countries or regions on this scale is probably not appropriate. It is just another way to rank "good vs. bad" and allow for the punch up vs. down logic.

So a comment about George being "English" may not be viewed as hurtful as that might be punching up or maybe sideways? (Marko might still think he is punching down )

And we here will commonly call out Ferrari for being a trainwreck as they are "Italian". Is that OK? We act like it is (and I expect I can find an example of me being guilty of this if I look for it). But in the end, none of these derogatory generalizations are healthy or should be acceptable. But at the same time the world is not a homogenous place. There are real differences that can be affixed to cultural and/or geography. And to apply those pros/cons in discussions without seeming to be a bigot is very hard to do.

A good example of cultural differences having real world impacts is the relationship between a superior and subordinate in commercial aircraft cockpits. This is a real issue that has been studied. In short, cultures that make it hard for a subordinate (co-pilot) to express disagreement with a superior (pilot) results in accidents that could be avoided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact...viation_safety

So as we circle back around, does that mean it is OK for someone like Marko to say what he said? Is what he was saying accurate? I think for most, we realize that it is likely that Marko was saying what he was saying with malicious intent. It's like the quote about pornography. It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. His comments was meant to be derogatory.

But lets say he didn't mean it to be derogatory. Lets pretend there was some data to back up his assertions. Then it falls into the next trap that you just don't talk about some things due to the larger social contract reasons. In short, don't say it as there is no way to say it without looking like an idiot.

I don't know what the right answer is here. What I do feel relatively confident on (even if it's just a personal opinion) is that Marko is an idiot, likely a bigot and what he said regarding Perez deserved the level of outrage it received.

Richard

I don't know. I guess I'm older and more thick-skinned than most and I sometimes feel that I'm floundering in the wake of political correctness and whatever 'social contract reasons' are.... I've long lived by what I consider to be the very sensible notion of 'engage brain before opening mouth', but that's more to do with not looking a fool rather than any kind of social awareness. I sometimes look back to the 'innocence' of my youth and the things we might say about each other and even worse, the descriptions my parents used to use without any thought of them causing offence. It is a completely different world now and much of it is for the better - but (IMO) not all. These days thanks to the wonders of social media we can dissect everything that is said or done by pretty much anyone - from a safe distance where our thoughts and comments are not only remote and protected but at the same time are largely pointless and throwaway. It was a dumb thing to say but I've heard a hell of a lot worse. The fact that the gaff was about one of his own drivers allows it to be minimised by the team to a degree but the rest of us continue to see Marko as the pillock he is....

[Born Racer]

Yes, I guess I was refererring to what you term punching down. England has historically been a puncher downer, so having a pop at someone for being English will not resonate as hard as punching down a Mexican. In theory, they're both as bad as each other. In the real contemporary world, a derogatory comment about someone's Mexican (sorry, I genuinely forgot when I wrote that - South American nature (he forgot or was ignorant to the fact that Mexico is not in South America) is likely to come across worse than a derogatory comment about someone's English nature.

In an ideal world, Marko would have offered up some research that shows that South Americans more commonly show the traits he described than people from continents. I don't know if there is any.

I understand that some don't want to react strongly to what he said, as it was most likely that he was just being a pillock (what a hilariously apposite and joyfully light-hearted word that does sound!), whilst possibly being a bigot, but not meaning to be hateful to South Americans - benefit of the doubt. However, it's a good thing that there are people who are willing to challenge such words, even if said in a non-hateful spirit, because by challenging such behaviour, we open ourselves up to a shift in mindset and call out people for perpetuating negative and sometimes damaging assertions.

On a different note, it sounded like Marko's apology came straight from ChatGPT.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I understand that some don't want to react strongly to what he said, as it was most likely that he was just being a pillock (what a hilariously apposite and joyfully light-hearted word that does sound!), whilst possibly being a bigot, but not meaning to be hateful to South Americans - benefit of the doubt. However, it's a good thing that there are people who are willing to challenge such words, even if said in a non-hateful spirit, because by challenging such behaviour, we open ourselves up to a shift in mindset and call out people for perpetuating negative and sometimes damaging assertions.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree, and it is thankful that we are now far far away from the world we used to see portrayed in the likes of 'Love Thy Neighbour' or 'Til Death Do Us Part' (apologies to non-Brits for the references) but I think these days there is a genuine 'fear' of saying the wrong thing or not even appreciating that what you are saying could be perceived as negative. As I said, we now analyse everything and we have journalists and 'influencers' who think it is now their job - even their right - to give us our opinions and cast those who dare to speak out against them into the abyss of shame and ridicule.....

(I think I've had too much caffeine this morning..... ).

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

What I do feel relatively confident on (even if it's just a personal opinion) is that Marko is an idiot, likely a bigot and what he said regarding Perez deserved the level of outrage it received.

Richard

I can promise you that he is absolutely no idiot.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Don't get me wrong, I do agree, and it is thankful that we are now far far away from the world we used to see portrayed in the likes of 'Love Thy Neighbour' or 'Til Death Do Us Part' (apologies to non-Brits for the references) but I think these days there is a genuine 'fear' of saying the wrong thing or not even appreciating that what you are saying could be perceived as negative. As I said, we now analyse everything and we have journalists and 'influencers' who think it is now their job - even their right - to give us our opinions and cast those who dare to speak out against them into the abyss of shame and ridicule.....

(I think I've had too much caffeine this morning..... ).

Don't worry, Aysedasi - I understood where you were coming from. I think there's room for stances like your own and also the stance of challenging the opinions. But I'd rather there was less room for stuff like what Marko said. I've also had too much caffeine, what with it being an office day and having bottomless coffee available from a machine.

Originally Posted by peebee2

I can promise you that he is absolutely no idiot.

Alright, we'll go with 'pillock', then.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard C

What I do feel relatively confident on (even if it's just a personal opinion) is that Marko is an idiot, likely a bigot and what he said regarding Perez deserved the level of outrage it received.

I guess Horner, Newey and Waché are currently Red Bull's Fun Boy Three?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I can promise you that he is absolutely no idiot.

Sorry, i can't take your word here. "Idiot" may be overly strong or generic of a word here. I am sure the English language provides a more nuanced definition that better describes him. But short of someone being purposely obtuse, readers here should understand what I am getting at.

Is he dimwitted and unable to remember how to tie his shoes? No. Is he someone who is oblivious to how his words land? Words that even someone of average intelligence should know not to say? Especially when operating in a public facing role? Yes.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard C

"Idiot" may be overly strong or generic of a word here. I am sure the English language provides a more nuanced definition that better describes him. But short of someone being purposely obtuse, readers here should understand what I am getting at.

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Richard - I think you were quite right with your first description of him being an idiot. Idiot: a stupid person or someone who is behaving in a stupid way Is he a stupid person? Someone who is showing poor judgment or little intelligence is described as stupid, and I think it is clear he showed poor judgment. His intelligence is not in question, but his judgment is. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[chillibowl]

Meanwhile, Perez has seemingly accepted the apology, defended Marko, and in the process has most likely secured his seat next year…or at the least made it really hard for RB/Marko to drop him now.

Cynical perhaps and certainly does not excuse Marko’s word choice, but I am curious to see how Perez drives now, for lack of a better phrase, in cleaner air?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Apart from that, yes. I was thinking more in terms of attitude to situations. I think Russell just made a mistake, really.

Agreed: Russell made a mistake. Everyone drives to their chosen level of risk: crash once in 1000 corners or crash once in 10000 corners or whatever they might choose. Unfortunately for George he was probably driving at a riskier level than normal and the "once" turned up at that moment.

Think back to that time a year or two ago when Verstappen crashed on the last corner of a hot qualifying lap. (Was it in China?) Some people said he was unlucky to crash on what was otherwise a brilliant lap. All through the lap I had been thinking this looks like "crash once in 10 corners" driving. There are more than 10 corners in the lap so I didn't think it was surprising when he stuffed it. Not just unlucky. Nor should he be criticised for crashing (IMHO). Perhaps he could be criticised for driving at the 1 in 10 pace, but he did give us entertainment.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Think back to that time a year or two ago when Verstappen crashed on the last corner of a hot qualifying lap. (Was it in China?)

Jeddah (Saudi GP) 2021 IIRC

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by E.B

Jeddah (Saudi GP) 2021 IIRC

Thanks.