[Rumours] Sainz To Renault to Replace Palmer?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by mceci1

However far away Australia is to Austria is mine. I myself have more inside involvement in V8 Supercars

I am sorry if I gave offence. The point I wanted to make was that you are hardly likely to have heard from Carlos sr from 10,000 miles away, especially when it is Spanish language journos he speaks to.

Much is public domain anyway.

RB passed over Carlos jr for F1 to get Verstappen.

Carlos jr was only reluctantly promoted when Seb jumped to Ferrari.

Max destroyed Carlos jr in his first year, despite much less experience.

RB moved Max to RBR as they were scared they might lose him due to the toxic atmosphere at STR.

The problems this year were all about sr and jr mouthing off around the paddock, which was in an official RBR press release. Jr had to apologise in public.

Jos is no angel, and only one of 3 managers to Max, along with Huub and Raymond, which also rarely gets said, but now the atmosphere at RBR is generally good and still toxic between the current STR drivers. Who is the link?

I think if you were closer you might see something other than the "potential" you think you can see. Like I said, I think he's competent but no star.

[chunterer]

Erm....
Careful peebee...
I think you may be singling out the wrong 'link'

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Max destroyed Carlos jr in his first year, despite much less experience.

Don't remember that happening. I thought they were pretty even (Max with a slight edge).

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Don't remember that happening. I thought they were pretty even (Max with a slight edge).

Last year Vettel got 15% more points than Kimi and millions thought Raikkonen should retire.

In 2014 Max got over 270% of the points scored by Carlos jr!

[mceci1]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Last year Vettel got 15% more points than Kimi and millions thought Raikkonen should retire.

In 2014 Max got over 270% of the points scored by Carlos jr!

Did he, did pretty well to do that given he wasn't in F1 during 2014. It was Kyvat and Sainz at Toro Rosso

[mceci1]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I am sorry if I gave offence. The point I wanted to make was that you are hardly likely to have heard from Carlos sr from 10,000 miles away, especially when it is Spanish language journos he speaks to.

Well you gave no offence until you implied that Australians have little knowledge about F1 due to how far away we are. You do know there is an Australian talent by the name of Dan Ricciardo who is blowing Max out of the water. He has a huge amount of backing back home, we follow like we follow V8s, with a passion.

Point being, I am not insulted that someone doesn't pay enough attention to us, but just remember, Australians, like most other countries (I think) are a proud group of people and support our sportsman in a massive wave. This leads us to follow others. We pick things up.

For next time, just read over it before posting at extremities like that, I doubt it was intentional but just be careful. Also we have Australian (or English speaking) media overseas who would interview Carlos Snr if he had something big to say.

[S griffin]

I think Sainz could be a star, I think the reason he doesn't stand out, is that he's not as exciting as Max. If he went to Renault, it would not only help him, but hopefully give Gasly the chance at STR

[mceci1]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think Sainz could be a star, I think the reason he doesn't stand out, is that he's not as exciting as Max. If he went to Renault, it would not only help him, but hopefully give Gasly the chance at STR

He would be a good fit with Hulkenberg too

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

In 2014 Max got over 270% of the points scored by Carlos jr!

Leaving the year error aside - points don't tell the whole story (and the difference is exaggerated by the team scraping around for points - this season for example Alonso has 1000% of the points of Vandoorne - or 9 more depending on how you want to spin it).

[peebee2]

Lol - hence why Stoffel is bricking it st present!

[gert]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

points don't tell the whole story

So true. If they did, the conclusion was that Ricciardo was absolutely destroying Verstappen.
Just look at the point difference: 117 - 67.

Fact is, there's a reason for that.
That same reason applies to Verstappen en Sainz in 2015.

[broadrun96]

But how do you filter that? If the car quits for a non-driver mechanical fault, loose wheel, innocent victim of another's wreck do we drop that event from the total and thus use points/event completed? And then, how can we tell if it is driver error that caused the retirement (engine failure, tire, suspension, etc), and if it was do we then count that event as a zero point event?

I am honestly asking for the debate, don't have a dog in the fight on either side. But the comparison of drivers has always had challenges in using points, race finish percentage, wins, etc. Whichever one you use shows a bit of bias as to what you want your driver to do. If you win 5 but don't get any points in the rest, you've got wins but few points compared to the driver who always finishes in the top 5 every event but no wins. And it gets even worse further back in the field as Bert pointed out with Alonso v Vandoorne, any driver with no points is screwed percentage wise compared to a driver with even 5. But a 5 point difference at the sharp end is gone with one tire lockup or missed corner.

[gert]

I think you can't.

Or at least: we can't - and maybe a team can to some degree. They (may) know all the little problems on a car that we don't know and are never obvious and can take that into account when comparing the performance/points finishes of their both drivers.

They also can see if a driver picks up the advise they give him. Vandoorne for example was told to adapt his style because he was leaning too much on his GP2-style and that just did not work. Likewise he wanted the team to adapt a bit more towards him.
Probably the only ones who know if (enough) progress has been made are McLaren and Vandoorne.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by gert

I think you can't.

Or at least: we can't - and maybe a team can to some degree. They (may) know all the little problems on a car that we don't know and are never obvious and can take that into account when comparing the performance/points finishes of their both drivers.

They also can see if a driver picks up the advise they give him. Vandoorne for example was told to adapt his style because he was leaning too much on his GP2-style and that just did not work. Likewise he wanted the team to adapt a bit more towards him.
Probably the only ones who know if (enough) progress has been made are McLaren and Vandoorne.

And he obviously has. We can all tell that from the last few weekends?

[GTRMagic]

If you believe This article the switch is on, for Singapore...

[chavez]

Originally Posted by gert

So true. If they did, the conclusion was that Ricciardo was absolutely destroying Verstappen.
Just look at the point difference: 117 - 67.

Fact is, there's a reason for that.
That same reason applies to Verstappen en Sainz in 2015.

Yes, the reason is Verstappen has about as much race craft as Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

He has the speed of a young Andrea deCesaris. He also has the bad luck and the inability to overtake anyone cleanly that Andrea had.

He is fast and may mature but he may also become an unfulfilled talent.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by chavez

Yes, the reason is Verstappen has about as much race craft as Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

He has the speed of a young Andrea deCesaris. He also has the bad luck and the inability to overtake anyone cleanly that Andrea had.

He is fast and may mature but he may also become an unfulfilled talent.

Err....

HHF had very good racecraft?

No disrespect to the late AdC but he is in no way comparable with Max. They are poles apart.

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If you believe This article the switch is on, for Singapore...

That could make sense. If both Renault cars scored on a regular basis (actually if Palmer scored anywhere near the leauge of Hulk's tally), the team would be a clear 5th ahead of Williams right now. The gap is somewhere up and around 20mil between P5 and P8 in the constuctor's championship (in the ballpark of 90 vs 70 mil is what we are talking, i believe).

It's all just speculation, but I dont see buying a guy like Sainz outz 1.5 year early would carry a price tag too near to 20mil, do you? So with this move, Sainz could actually earn the money back to the team and then some.

It would also make sense for STR, that was -i always thought- a platform for young up and coming guys, and not a retirement home. They could finally put Gasly in, use Kvyatt as a benchmark for a while, until the next hotshoe is ready.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by chavez

Yes, the reason is Verstappen has about as much race craft as Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

He has the speed of a young Andrea deCesaris. He also has the bad luck and the inability to overtake anyone cleanly that Andrea had.

He is fast and may mature but he may also become an unfulfilled talent.

You must be either joking or you are absolutely blind.

[S griffin]

Verstappen passes cleanly more often than not. So no way comparable to the late de Crasheris

So Sainz in for Malaysia eh? Not a bad move if true, as it could also mean Gasly in at STR. Although it's hard not to feel sorry for Palmer

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Verstappen passes cleanly more often than not. So no way comparable to the late de Crasheris

So Sainz in for Malaysia eh? Not a bad move if true, as it could also mean Gasly in at STR. Although it's hard not to feel sorry for Palmer

Hard to feel bad for palmer, he's not exactly shone at any point even when his car was working.




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[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

Hard to feel bad for palmer, he's not exactly shone at any point even when his car was working.




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totally agree.......he has had a season and a half to show what he can do, hardly performed any giant-killing races like other top drivers did when they were in lesser machinery.......Renault desperatley need points, so I think he needs to go......weather Sainz is the man or not, is another argument......but looks like he is going to get the drive regardless

[S griffin]

Leave it out, did you not see Spa. He was driving at his best in quali, then his bad luck struck again. So he's not had the rub of the green, it would be a shame if he didn't get at least one point this season. It just wouldn't be justice

[gert]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Although it's hard not to feel sorry for Palmer

He's not had a good season, but the last 2 race weekends were actually his best, so in a way I do feel a bit sorry for him.

[Graz]

Palmer's had his chance and isn't good enough. Sticking Sainz in before the end of the season gets his prep for 2018 going early.

While Palmer has had some reliability issues, he has also stuck it in the wall far to much too which is his own doing. I wouldn't mind if he was quick and doing so but he isn't. You can teach a fast driver to stop crashing etc etc.....

Hopefully Kubica gets a shot at Williams although will they risk having an unproven 'new' Kubica with a still unproven Stroll? I thought Strolls race craft in Monza was pretty poor and at this stage that's a little surprising - he kept coming out of the slipstream too early and wasn't decisive on the brakes before flat spotting his fronts. I don't think the Williams is as bad as Stroll and Massa are making it look.

Before anyone accuses me of Stroll bashing (Strolling...?), he's doing ok. He just needs to do better.