Turn 8 @ Adelaide, What do we do now??

[FPV GTHO]

Now heres a crazy idea. Maybe they should start crash testing the cars. It might require going to a simpler spec roll cage/chassis to make it affordable, but at least they can get some quantitative data on the safety of the cars and take measures to keep improving them.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Denosaur

Slow them down before hand some how. I'm sure there's enough room around there to possibly create another hairpin of sorts to encourage some more overtaking.



They have been saying in the media that Earnhardt was his hero and he died in the same 'fashion' as Dale did, doing something they both loved. I very much doubt that he hit his chin on the wheel and that his seat belt was incorrectly installed as has been said about Dale's accident.

At the end of the day, the extremely high g-forces of the impact and that his head and helmet would have moved around so severely during the impact that his head injury would have come from it hitting one of the roll bars on the drivers right side. For all those questioning that this couldn't happen, even with the current HANS device he was wearing, his head would have still moved around.

Looks like you misunderstood me 100%.

I was not relating the Dale Earnhardt accident to the Ashley Cooper accident at all. I was only mentioning the Dale Earnhardt accident as an example that the human body can only absorb a finite amount of force over a finite period of time.

I hope that is clear.

[Pro Racer]

for me Marks crash was due to lack of vision not walls David came up over the crest and theres Mark stalled there no real reaction time, Alajajain hit him but was far enough over to just collect the rear where David wasn't .

[duke_toaster]

I'd stick a chicane in, it's a hairy but reasonably safe* corner if it's on a permenant track with some tarmac runoff then plenty of gravel but a hairy but dangerous corner on a street circuit.

* Everything's relative. Motorsport is dangerous, but where we can we must take sensible precautions.

[nickyf1]

SOme people have said to put runoff at turn 8, but that would be almost impossible as we are in the middle of a city. For more runoff, it would be better to use the GP track, and stick a Chicane in at Brewery, like the new bus stop chicane at spa, but on a smaller scale. This would add another overtaking spot too. another solution would be a safer barrier, or a chicane before turn eight, since that straight before it is very wide, perhaps a Surfers Paradise style chicane, with a tyre barrier on the exit of turn eight.

I have never seen a SAFER barrier outside of an oval before, but I think they have been testing a new kind of absorbant barrier at Paul Ricard, so that could be used.

Also, less downforce on the development cars would be a good idea too.

[davester]

I guess I'm about to polarise opinion on whether ANY "circuit" needs to be a dangerous element in our sport.

Motor Racing is Dangerous...we see it on every entry form, every gate, every ticket, and YES it does have an element of risk which varies from low to high depending on each split second circumstance.

Competitor to competitor contact, driver errors, equipment failure, environment (rain/heat), are all natural elements, and no different to most sports.

BUT does any circuit need to be dangerous? I think NOT!
Motor racing is already full of spectacular and gripping action, and displays a wide range of sensory appeal. You've got the sights and sounds, the buzz of the crowd, the smell of high octane rubber burning race cars, the intensity of spirited competition, and "rubbin' is racing" action.

However, the sport just like any other sport has a duty of care to protect its participants in a reasonable manner, and I'm not talking about childishly removing all risk.



I find anyone in authority who suggests turn 8 is safe to be culpible. IMO the minor changes made each year are mere smokescreens to avoid possible inaction claims (clayton's modifications if you like). Make no mistake, the configuration of turn 8 will be changed for 2009, and unfortunately it's not due to the hign number of cars that made contact with it this year, but because Ashley is no longer with us.

If a life is to be taken, it should never happen in a routine type situation due to a minor error (like Ashley's). Mark's (Porter) was different (blind high speed preceeding corner, obstructed vision, oil down), likewise Speraficio (bounced back side-on into oncoming traffic), both presenting unfortunate and freak combinations of occurences.

Now is the time for CAMS to step in with a Federally Funded proposal to significantly upgrade many circuits nationally, starting with Bathurst. Now is the time for "street circuit" promotors to stop hiding behind flimsy FIA certificates that place convenience and spectators above the welfare of our drivers.

I'll puke next time I hear an official speak droid-like dribble about full FIA compliance when they know from emperical evidence that those standards do not cut it. Street circuits can be made safe, with resulting compromise to spectator viewing areas and access.

F1 with the exception of Monaco has the highest circuit safety levels of all motor sport. Why? Because it's televised internationally, and the drivers have joined to project a strong influence on safety. We need someone within CAMS or the drivers to stand up and take the lead before another life is lost (due to commercial interests ?).

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Excuse my bad wording.


Porters crash did involve Concrete walls. But his death was another car hitting him.

Those walls are irrelevent, as a car could spin and stall on the race line and end up in the same spot.

Sorry, concrete walls did contribute to his death, if there had been run-off he wouldn't be sitting in the middle of the track.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Thats exactly the answer.......

Speed limit the cars to 100, then everything will be fine.
Done.

Back to being serious, so they put in a chicane and the cars entry speed is slower, what about Porters crash? There weren't any concrete walls involved there.

Good of you to take my statment out of context, you know damn well that I meant (and as I had previously posted), a chicane before turn 8 will resolve a lot of the problems of that corner, if not all.

VESA will not be in favour of my suggestion as it gives spectacular TV viewing and we all know that what TC is all about.

BTW, I drive a race car - you?

[Trevor]

As a side note, on the 21st of September 2003, a flag point at turn 7 (the Tank) at Winton was hit buy a Commodore in a Procar event, no-one was seriously injured in this incident, BUT CAMS "made" Winton move the Tank 1.5 metres into a different spot. All this fuss over this, but Turn 8 in Adelaide . . . . . . . . .

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

The point was contained therein.

An irrelvant one at that.

I am happy to out myself here to justify my reasons for the post, my question to you is, "are you happy to out yourself to refute me?"

Many people on here know me and know my involvment in motorsport and it is not just posting on forums and showing up to an occasional race meeting, what about you, what about your motives?


Your move!

I don't care what your motives are, I'm just giving my opinion. And in my opinion, a tracks challenge to the drivers should remain.

The only thing that needs to be done with Turn 8 is to put a SAFER barrier in there. The challenge of a fast, blind corner doesn't have to be removed because someone died. Thats how you end up with boring, characterless tracks that litter Europe, America and Oceania.

[mountainstar]

It's important to note:

FIA standards=guidelines devised by bureaucrats

Good, yes. But they don't fit every circumstance. Sometimes a little common sense like SAFER barriers in key locations would be good.

Also for drivers we need to invest in the best possible safety gear. Seats, belts, helmets, fireproof gear, you name it. How many drivers I see with clapped out trashed gear? Enough to be concerned. I'm doing a racetrack program as an instructor right now in the USA with a performance car that's a weapon. We've set the program up to limit speeds because of inexperienced track drivers behind the wheel. And we have the fail safe of yanking the handbrake or grabbing the wheel. And it's very, very, very unlikely anything would happen. Instead of a open face helmet like everyone else though I use a full face helmet with chin bar. Everyone has a little chuckle. BUT what if some guy has a heart attack at 100 mph and I'm left as passenger? I'd rather have as much protection as is available.

Before someone has a spass attack again, I'm not saying any of this had relation to what happened last weekend, only that I think it's time safety gets a closer look and a reexamination of what is the status quo and what if anything can be done to improve?

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Sorry, concrete walls did contribute to his death, if there had been run-off he wouldn't be sitting in the middle of the track.

Have a read of my post again. A car could spin, then stall and find its way into the same position, and would have the outcome. That cancels the wall out of the equasion.

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Good of you to take my statment out of context, you know damn well that I meant (and as I had previously posted), a chicane before turn 8 will resolve a lot of the problems of that corner, if not all.

VESA will not be in favour of my suggestion as it gives spectacular TV viewing and we all know that what TC is all about.

BTW, I drive a race car - you?

Obviously the only way to have 0 deaths/injuries in motorsport is to drive slower. Yes its a stupid suggestion, but thats the only way you will have an injury free outcome.


Ladies and Gentlemen who don't drive race cars, please delete your accounts immediately.
You may drive a race car, but that doesn't make peoples posts who don't, any less relevant.

[davester]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

The only thing that needs to be done with Turn 8 is to put a SAFER barrier in there. The challenge of a fast, blind corner doesn't have to be removed because someone died. Thats how you end up with boring, characterless tracks that litter Europe, America and Oceania.

Are you advocating a position that small errors should be met with potential fatal consequences, for the sake of circuit character?

The paved surfaces, it's character, and the effort to negotiate them is not really in question here, rather the margin of safety for a vehicle/driver that has been involved in an accident situation.

What I am talking about is ensuring there is a uniform attempt to lead the way by mandating improved run-off areas and barriers that allow stricken vehicles to better protect the occupant from fatal deceleration and oncoming traffic.

Please also consider that a car bouncing back onto the racing line also places oncoming drivers at risk. Sadly, there are many instances across Australia where crashed cars have no option but to come to rest on the track. Such a situation also prevents critical outside assistance being rendered expediantly as track workers will not be given entry clearance while moving cars are still within immediate proximity.

1) Adelaide turn 8: move corner exit wall to provide sufficient room for improved impact barrier, with sufficient room for crashed car to not necessarily return onto the track.

2) Reid Park (Bathurst, and many other sections of that track): ditto above.

Like I said before, CAMS should seek Federal Funding for a nationwide circuit safety upgrade program (it wont be cheap)...act socially responsible and our sport will remain attractive for corporates and consumers to keep supporting the dreams of future generations.

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by davester

Are you advocating a position that small errors should be met with potential fatal consequences, for the sake of circuit character?

The paved surfaces, it's character, and the effort to negotiate them is not really in question here, rather the margin of safety for a vehicle/driver that has been involved in an accident situation.

What I am talking about is ensuring there is a uniform attempt to lead the way by mandating improved run-off areas and barriers that allow stricken vehicles to better protect the occupant from fatal deceleration and oncoming traffic.

Please also consider that a car bouncing back onto the racing line also places oncoming drivers at risk. Sadly, there are many instances across Australia where crashed cars have no option but to come to rest on the track. Such a situation also prevents critical outside assistance being rendered expediantly as track workers will not be given entry clearance while moving cars are still within immediate proximity.

1) Adelaide turn 8: move corner exit wall to provide sufficient room for improved impact barrier, with sufficient room for crashed car to not necessarily return onto the track.

2) Reid Park (Bathurst, and many other sections of that track): ditto above.

Like I said before, CAMS should seek Federal Funding for a nationwide circuit safety upgrade program (it wont be cheap)...act socially responsible and our sport will remain attractive for corporates and consumers to keep supporting the dreams of future generations.

I am advocating changes that would not compromise circuit character or driver challenge, rather than kneejerk reactions such as putting chicanes in. A SAFER barrier would suffice, in my opinion. The issue with Bathurst was never the speed, it was the fact that it was a side-on impact. I would suggest that the driver seat be moved closer to the centre of the car so there would be more room for safety equipment to cushion side-on impacts, for instance.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Ladies and Gentlemen who don't drive race cars, please delete your accounts immediately.

What a sense of humour, you kill me!!!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I would suggest that the driver seat be moved closer to the centre of the car so there would be more room for safety equipment to cushion side-on impacts, for instance.

So? You want to keep the tracks more relevant, but not the cars - interesting.

[madman16]

First of all, my sympathies go out to the Cooper family.

It was mentioned that his seat did break in the accident which maybe has more to do with his injuries than anything else. You can't look into changing the seat position when it wasn't even that side that made contact.

Me personally i'm not one for changing the corner. It would have to be one of the most exciting corners in Aus motorsport. The drivers know the risks but unfortunately accidents happen. The corner is always lined with people because they know how good it is to see a driver on the limit through such high speed corner.

I know there has been suggestions of a greater run off area but at the angle they hit the wall, correct me if i'm wrong as i was there on the weekend, isn't that someone's house you wish to demolish. You may want to check with them first

When watching the repairs though i noticed that there was plenty of room for a forklift behind the wall before the gutter. Couldn't the wall be pushed back a metre or so and a "nascar" fence be put in front of it. As i see it the main problem with a tyre wall, even if there was a slight touch like Ingall in morning practice, a tyre wall will grab the car and spit it out into the middle of the track potentially causing an even bigger accident.

Hopefully they take their time and think about it. They have 11 months to find a solution. It would be a shame to lose such a great corner.

Thats my 2 cents

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

So? You want to keep the tracks more relevant, but not the cars - interesting.

Yes. Moving the seats more towards the centre doesn't take anything away from driver challenge.

[Trevor]

double post - sorry

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Yes. Moving the seats more towards the centre doesn't take anything away from driver challenge.

Which would have put Ashley Cooper closer the the impact area. He hit the wall with the left hand side of the car, in case you missed the vision.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

What a sense of humour, you kill me!!!

I was just saying what you were implying.



Seating position wouldn't have changed a thing about the impact.

There is room for a big runoff area (keeping in mind that road is 8 lanes wide (3+3 and parking lanes each side) but the grandstand takes up most of that.
It could be put back to how it was in the first years of the 500, and probably without much difficulty, keeping the bend as it is, but moving the fence back the 10 or so metres it used to be. Not sure what change that would have had with coopers accident (although he was on the brakes, so i assume he would'v hit the wall at alot lower speed if it was further back). The only problem would be, how do you show where the track is, and the runoff. Ripple strips would probably be too dangerous, as a car at speed could possibly get airborn, and Jones knows all about what tyre walls can do.


Since the first clipsal, i always wondered why they didn't use the full F1 circuit, but i could imagine the uproar from the residents nearby that have a whinge as it is now, imagine if there was another main access road to the city taken out.

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I am advocating changes that would not compromise circuit character or driver challenge, rather than kneejerk reactions such as putting chicanes in. A SAFER barrier would suffice, in my opinion. The issue with Bathurst was never the speed, it was the fact that it was a side-on impact. I would suggest that the driver seat be moved closer to the centre of the car so there would be more room for safety equipment to cushion side-on impacts, for instance.

I suggest you read the whole quote before making half-cocked answers

I was clearly talking about Porters accident. I already proposed an ideal solution to Turn 8, so both of my points conveyed how unnecessary it'd be to remove the challenge from the circuits when the safety of the car can be improved.

[FPV GTHO]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65320

Wayne Cattach says a few words about the car safety

[Trevor]

Bloody hell Wayne, a bit late for a statement like this, have you had a look at the cars lately?

He would also want any changes to keep the series more in line with DTM than NASCAR.

"We want to keep the cars in a form that gives our manufacturers the chance to market them. We wouldn't want to go down the NASCAR route, but have them as a silhouette of the road car."

[svall88]

I didnt read all the posts in the thread but from the general idea i got my thaughts are:
(Note: I have been sitting at turn 8 for about 4 years now and seen most of the action there)

-For the people who say there should be a run off are there it is virtually impossible. there are only two lanes left of the road behind the barriers. one is for the marshalls and the forklift if needed to fix up the wall and the other is outside the fencing around the circuit and is left for people to access their homes while the event is on.

-If the GP circuit was adopted the cars would come around less often (something some spectators would prefer not happening) and also the GP circuit would bring more problems as noted by someone else the cars could come off the straight to the hairpin(turn 9 now) at much faster speeds and there isnt much more room for run off area there as well as problems for run off areas at the top of the circuit where the second chicane would be.

The best option in my opinion is to find a softer surface (e.g. Tyre barrier ) to put on the outside wall of turn 8.

I want to conclude to saying that after seeing people walk out of the car from a crash over the years to see someone die on that corner is a horrible thing to see and all the people in the turn 8 stand (Brock Straight Stand) were devastated in hearing the news of Ashleys critical state on sunday.

It has been bugging me to understand how all the other accidents at turn 8 though the years have never lead to injury (from what i recall) and this one was fatal. With all respect i cant go by the thaught that something went wrong with the safety setup in the car.

I just realized madman16 has made many similar thaughts to mine.

[madman16]

Originally Posted by svall88

-For the people who say there should be a run off are there it is virtually impossible. there are only two lanes left of the road behind the barriers. one is for the marshalls and the forklift if needed to fix up the wall and the other is outside the fencing around the circuit and is left for people to access their homes while the event is on.

That's what i thought. And at the angle the runoff would be needed i'm pretty sure someone is living in there.

One thing i forgot to check with the corner however. is the inside guardrail still away from the apex of the corner? I remember them moving that back a few years ago but if he hit the inside wall it just made me think if it still was