[LM24] F1 attacks Le Mans

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by deggis

If in sportscars it's not about the cars, why did Romain Dumas realistically have zero chance winning Le Mans this year in the #16 Pesca? I doubt his skills deteriorated so much after successful season and half in ALMS...

(By the way, Sebring '08 isn't very good example. Remember Audis and Pug broke down. You should have used as an example some of the Porsche wins from last season.)

I would say "best car" matters even more in sportscars. Especially currently because there are only couple of factory teams and betweem them and the private teams the technological gap is just so huge, that even if you put McNish/TomK/Capello in the Oreca-Courage, they would not win. Just like Kimi Raikkonen would not win in Toro Rosso.

-

Your point is well taken. I must agree to some degree. However, since the appearance of the diesels the situation has been exacerbated in the world of sportscars. Before the diesels, different protos used to win the races (granted still mostly Audis). The ACO needs to rectify this by somehow equalizing the performance of the petrol engined cars to the diesels. You must admit, in F1 it's always Ferrari and every once in a while someone else comes along to give them a challenge. For a few years it was Renault and now its McLaren with BMW getting better and more competitive. I do like to watch the strategy of F1, but find that the race is practically always won in qualifying with the pole winner seeming to have the best chance. Sportscars is certainly more than the P1s & P2s with the GT races in FIA-GT, perhaps, being the most exciting as pole sitters rarely win and positions change often and passing is an ongoing activity. This seems to be a discipline where drivers skills always come into play. Guys like Wendlinger, Bouchut, Fassler & Hezemans (to name only a few) would be competitive in bathtubs with wheels.

DK

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

From F1 to bowls eh? At times, similar excitement levels too!

You obviously don't watch bowls much and know the excitement you can get from that!

Originally Posted by Tom87

Thats hardly suprising is it? I don't watch rugby except when the World Cup or 6 nations are on!

Too mainstream.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Your point is well taken. I must agree to some degree. However, since the appearance of the diesels the situation has been exacerbated in the world of sportscars. Before the diesels, different protos used to win the races (granted still mostly Audis). The ACO needs to rectify this by somehow equalizing the performance of the petrol engined cars to the diesels. You must admit, in F1 it's always Ferrari and every once in a while someone else comes along to give them a challenge. For a few years it was Renault and now its McLaren with BMW getting better and more competitive. I do like to watch the strategy of F1, but find that the race is practically always won in qualifying with the pole winner seeming to have the best chance. Sportscars is certainly more than the P1s & P2s with the GT races in FIA-GT, perhaps, being the most exciting as pole sitters rarely win and positions change often and passing is an ongoing activity. This seems to be a discipline where drivers skills always come into play. Guys like Wendlinger, Bouchut, Fassler & Hezemans (to name only a few) would be competitive in bathtubs with wheels.

DK

The polesitter always has a better chance of winning. I'd say the only reason there is less of a chnce of this happenign in sportscar racing is beacuse of the length of the events and more likelyhood for accidents or mechanical troubles - as I said before, passes are not that common to me at least in long sportscar races- passes are often made in the pits or when a car crashes out.

And as for pole positions winning, let's look at the LMS this year. The team that has gotten pole every race (Peugeot) has also won ever race.

Where some really fine racing goes on is in the ALMS where you have a great threeway battle for the overall lead and great parity amoungst the Fezzas and Porkies in GT2. I think a benefit of the sh orter races is the maintainment of excitement as the lead is frequently within reach - especially this year.

[GTfour]

Earlier in this thread,some posters disagreed with the nomenclature of Le Mans being a 24 hour sprint,saying that all the cars at a certain point,paced themselves because it'd be far to risky to run at maximum attack during such a long time.

Now if we take a look at the GT1 battle of this years race,it's an absolute certainty that the top three cars have been kaned from start to finish !
Which,to me,only makes the win of the 009 DBR-9 even more impressive.

In my eyes,F1 doesn't come close to the greatness of the big sportscar events. Trouble is,as it's popularity is growing inevitabaly,Bernie(The Mummy ) and his henchman,will do their best to bring this popularity down.
In history,the FIA has done this very brutal on more then one occasion,nowadays,it seems that it's just slowly infiltrating the ACO with former FIA chums.
Evidence of this can be seen in the way the Village at Le Mans is destroyed,the distance of the viewing public to the track is made bigger with every "improvement" of the circuit and the soundconstraints for the cars since the last two years...(ever heard of soundconstraints in F1?)

[Adam43]

Yes the change in the village is clearly F1's fault. As are the Audi Shuttlebuses.

[koper]

Originally Posted by JAG

Do F1 fans, in the main, follow other formulas, so many appear to be armchair supporters, following their countries latest driving star, then drifting away when their star fades, i.e. Spain and Alonso.

I'd suggest those who follow non F1 areas of the sport, have more than a passing knowledge of 2-3 other formulas, and understand and appreciate the contribution they make.

I'm an "armchair" supproter - however I was interested in F1 years before Kubica broke through - ok - I lost a bit of attention in Schumacher domination era.

I used to be intersted in WRC a couple years ago. Nowadays I am not that much.

But I know who or rather what to blame for it... the time.

As most of you, apart of ten-tenths forum I have a normal life and I read everyday quite a lot of articles about F1...checking portals couple times a day..yeah...I'm nerd.

Unforunatelly the day is too short so I'd rather follow and try to understand one formula than follow many and don't know what's going

[Aysedasi]

Each to his own koper, that's the answer......

GTfour, whilst I don't agree necessarily that F1 is damaging sportscars and Le Mans in particular, there is an F1-style influence which has been pervading Le Mans now for several years. Yes, we've had the direct and intentionally destructive involvement - i.e. the chicanes back in 1990, but the decision to change things like the Village are clearly down to the ACO, influenced in turn no doubt by the business concerns (the teams, the sponsors) who wanted 'better' facilities from which to sell/showcase their wares. Difficult to complain about that, although I'm happy to try every time another little bit of tradition is done away with..... That's progress folks and although it suits our purposes to blame it on F1, the connection is actually fairly tenuous, IMO.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Evidence of this can be seen in the way the Village at Le Mans is destroyed,the distance of the viewing public to the track is made bigger with every "improvement" of the circuit and the soundconstraints for the cars since the last two years...(ever heard of soundconstraints in F1?)

The improvements to the village were long overdue, the old village was cramped, dusty and looked unrpofessional. This is a major international event at a major international circuit remember?

The distance between the public and the track isn't that far near Arnarge/Tetre Rouge area. Since they reworked the viewing area at Tetre Rouge the view has been far better. The parts around the start/finish and Bugatti tracks have a lot of runoff to deal with bikers coming off at speed.

The cars have been running with a 113db noise limit since last year. The Judds still screamed and Corvettes still rumbled just as nicely as they've always done.

[Tom87]

I also doubt that at the moment F1 is having any impact on sportscars, but there is one F1-issue which threatens a number of other motorsports and that is where to host the British GP. I was horrified to hear rumours that Donny was being considered to replace Silverstone in the near future, I still hope the LMS will move back there at some stage and the last thing I want to go back to is a butchered track with Tilke's stamp of approval and a vast sea of run-off areas.

[Lusitano]

Why even consider whatever those muppets at f1 have to say about something they do not have a clue of?

Death to f1!

[GTfour]

Hear,hear !

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by johntt

The improvements to the village were long overdue, the old village was cramped, dusty and looked unrpofessional. That's called "caracter"...looked unprofessional...you really sound like an F1 boff! This is a major international event at a major international circuit remember? So? Does this mean everything should be changed for "the international" men? What about the event's own personallity?

The distance between the public and the track isn't that far near Arnarge/Tetre Rouge area. Arnage is about the only part of the track which hasn't been spoiled by the safetynazi's.(except for the 5 or 6 high intensity floodlights in the brakingarea,so one can hardly see the glowing brakediscs and overrun flames anymore... )The view with trees at Tertre rouge was lots better imho. If I wanna see large parts of a track in one glance,again I'll go to a modern F1 track. The parts around the start/finish and Bugatti tracks have a lot of runoff to deal with bikers coming off at speed.

The cars have been running with a 113db noise limit since last year. The Judds still screamed and Corvettes still rumbled just as nicely as they've always done.

The Judds mumbled compared to the years of '00 to '03 and the RS Spyders had mufflers to one side of 'm. Can you imagine? Mufflers?! That's like cutting lines in slick tires.....

The only car I suspect breeched the 113Db barrier with ease,was the Courage Mugen though.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by johntt

The improvements to the village were long overdue, the old village was cramped, dusty and looked unrpofessional. This is a major international event at a major international circuit remember?

I'm not sure I can buy that one either. I don't think the Village was particularly cramped. It certainly had atmosphere whereas the new shopping mall has absolutely no atmosphere, day or night. And surely a major international event ought to have atmosphere, didn't it?

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by GTfour

The Judds mumbled compared to the years of '00 to '03 and the RS Spyders had mufflers to one side of 'm. Can you imagine? Mufflers?! That's like cutting lines in slick tires.....

The only car I suspect breeched the 113Db barrier with ease,was the Courage Mugen though.

the courage mugen was running straight pipes at LM, would have easily been the loudest car at this years race as its a real earsplitter and makes an astonishing noise, kinda like a F430 being stabbed in the eye with ze cattle prod.

and i totally agree, i can remember being deafened by the hybrid courage C60 with the judd GV4 4.0 V10 at the LMES at silverstone in 2005, in 2007 last year the restrained grumble of the 5.5 V10 was a terrible sounding thing compared to the straight exhaust pipes 4.0 V10.

dont see the point in the noise restraints on sportscars to be fair, it seems like a pretty pointless thing thats done no good and only managed to **** fans off.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not sure I can buy that one either. I don't think the Village was particularly cramped. It certainly had atmosphere whereas the new shopping mall has absolutely no atmosphere, day or night. And surely a major international event ought to have atmosphere, didn't it?

Having been there for the 9th time this year the atmosphere there felt the same as it always done, if not better on account of the great racing.

re. the mufflers, I think GTfour has a point.

On other tracks you maybe need to tread a bit more carefully but at somewhere like LM where over 60% of the Gross Regional Product comes from the race and the locals know its going to be there for one weekend in June you could get away with taking the noise limits off for that race. That said, we don't know what background politics are/were going on.

[GTfour]

Having been there for the 13th time there this year,I found the atmosphere ever more cold and distant,layoutwise that is. The first to years we sat in the "loges" frontrow of grandstand Benoist. Cramped and creaking,but it oozed history and legend...
Take a look at this thread: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106869 there's a reason it sort a grinded to a halt at only fourteen posts...

"That said, we don't know what background politics are/were going on."

Good point. In my opinion,there's waaay to much politics going on and changes are being made for changes sake. It's like if a year without any changes to track or rules,is a year without productivity at the ACO.
Leave it alone for a few years lads! It's fine as it is,don't keep spoiling all the fun out of it....

[JAG]

and i totally agree, i can remember being deafened by the hybrid courage C60 with the judd GV4 4.0 V10 at the LMES at silverstone in 2005, in 2007 last year the restrained grumble of the 5.5 V10 was a terrible sounding thing compared to the straight exhaust pipes 4.0 V10.

The Judd GV4 4.0 V10 sounds like a low reving F1 motor, the 5.5 sounds more like a Ferrari 550.

The only cars that have defeaned me are the Dewalt TVR's and GT1 Panoz Esperante's, maybe coincidently side exit exhausts.

[GTfour]

To move slightly back on topic,I've had the good fortune to hear the last 3,5L V12 Ferrari F1 at full chat during a demonstration at Zandvoort somewhere in the nineties. Luca Badoer was driving and I'll never forget that rich highpitched scream.

[Aysedasi]

Sort of related to the issue........

Last night I downloaded all the race commentary mp3s from RLM (except the last 3 hours which are not uploaded yet). Burned the first couple to cd and played part of the first one on the way in to work this morning.

The grid commentators, Brian and Graham were actually able to talk to the starting drivers, even Jeroen Bleekemolen who was helmeted up and strapped in the car - just 2-3 minutes before they left for the final pace lap. They were talking to John Nielsen on the grid so late that they had to scramble over the pit wall - I remember it well - I watched them have the conversation from my grandstand seat in Lagache and have a photo of it! I bet Martin Brundle would love to have some of that cooperation on his gridwalks instead of the total lack of interest he gets from the F1 prima donnas.......

The other thing is atmosphere. I don't think I've ever had a tear come to my eye as I've relistened to a piece of commentary, but listening to Hindy describe the 35,000 hp as it thundered past the pits to start the 76th Grand Prix D'Endurance had that effect...... Absolutely amazing. I'm a Le Mans nut, so I tend to do these things, but if you were there experiencing them first-hand in particular, can I suggest you download the mp3s and have another listen - it's well worth it!

[GTfour]

Great idea! I'll get on it right away.

Too cool,listening to the entire Le Mans commentary again!

[JAG]

Maybe it was just a coincidence, a booming WRC, encrouching on F1's popularity, now on the brink of collapse, nothing like Group C, no, of course not, lol.

Ahead of the meeting, both Citroen and Ford had warned of the possibility of them withdrawing from the WRC, had these decisions not been taken.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68629

[Adam43]

Yes you are right, after reading the link, it is nothing like the Group C example!

[JAG]

Apart from booming popularity, big manufactuer support, then, amazingly, almost dead half a decade later, while directly under the control of the FIA, who'd have thought it!

Strike One - WTCC
Strike Two - WSC Group C
Strike Three (Almost) - WRC

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by JAG

The Judd GV4 4.0 V10 sounds like a low reving F1 motor, the 5.5 sounds more like a Ferrari 550.

The only cars that have defeaned me are the Dewalt TVR's and GT1 Panoz Esperante's, maybe coincidently side exit exhausts.

guess so, but the difference is though is that with the 4.0 V10's you could actually feel the noise in your chest which was absolutely incredible in my opinon, same with the LNT TVR T400's, i know what you mean about the TVR's a deafening noise but god was it good.

i concur on the 5.5 V10 front, it sounds kinda like a ferrari 550 GT or a DBR9 crossed with a viper, its a nice noise dont get me wrong, its a bloody wonderful noise but with the silencers its not as good a noise, at petit the creation was running with straight pipes, it was a little bit louder but it had a much better V10 wail to it than with silencers.

and i agree furthermore with respect to the FIA WSPC group C and WTCC, once F1 is threatened, the FIA will find some way to try and stop anything from challenging the bore de force that is F1.

[908-HDI]

What's F1?


Ah yes, the show I watch when I have a strong case of insomnia.