Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[phoenix]

Thanks Mike. Did that make the fitted engine a defacto BDG? Or was it an alloy-blocked BDA? The RS1800 production engine, which I thought was the first installation of the BDG, was 3.42"/86.8mm bore giving 1840cc (1837.2cc?) I believe.

[morninggents]

It was still a BDA and still 1600cc.

[phoenix]

I don't know if this link has been posted before, but it has some good photos of a Zakspeed car including rear suspension:

http://www.racedandrallied.com/race-...escort-rs-1600

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by morninggents

It was still a BDA and still 1600cc.

OK. So am I right in thinking that a BDG is not the correct engine for a Mk I Escort as it wasn't homolgated until 1975 in the Mk II?

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The Escort was only homologated with Ford 4 speed or ZF 5 speed synchromesh gearboxes, so don't see possibility of Zakspeed using anything other than latter in Mk1. When rules changed in 1976 they reverted to Ford 4 speed for the Mk2s.

Gear ratios for ZF were also homologated and are listed on FIA papers for RS1600 (No 1605)- which if you havn't got from your national MSA you really should get if you are intending to build a car.

Final drive ratios had to be homologated as well and are listed on the papers above. As to what was used or is used now- depends on circuit, tyre size and what engine revs to. Probably need 2 choices or maybe three if you take racing seriously......

I thought if they had used something else Dogboxes were allowed back then but not today.
I have the 1605 document

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I don't know if this link has been posted before, but it has some good photos of a Zakspeed car including rear suspension:

http://www.racedandrallied.com/race-...escort-rs-1600

I would not use this car as a model for building a H2 historic car. On the door there is a text H76..
Maybe it has the same spec. as Jorges car?

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by phoenix

OK. So am I right in thinking that a BDG is not the correct engine for a Mk I Escort as it wasn't homolgated until 1975 in the Mk II?

BDA is 1601 cc.. And the aluminium block was homologated in 1972 (dont remember the exact date) as 1601 cc but was bigger than the Iron block to get more capacity out of it..

BDA: 1601 cc as fitted to the RS1600, 120 bhp on twin 40s.
BDB: 1700 cc (83,5 mm bore) developped for rallying, 200 bhp.
BDC: 1700 cc (as BDB) but fitted with Lucas fuel injection for racing Mk1's, 230 bhp.
BDD: 1601 cc for Formula Atlantic (single seaters), 200 bhp.
BDE: 1790 cc for Formula 2, 245 bhp
BDF: 1927 cc for Formula 2, 270 bhp
BDG: 1973 cc, well known engine type, 280 bhp.
BDH: 1300 cc, for Group 2 racing, 190 bhp.
BDJ: 1100 cc, for Formula C racing (USA)
BDP: 1975 cc, for Midget racing (USA), using alcohol fuel.
BDR: 1700 cc, as used by the Caterhams, 165 bhp on twin carbs.
BDT: 1780 cc, as fitted to the RS1700T.
BDT-E: evolution version, 2137 cc, for Rallycross and Gp2 racing.
BDU, 1975 cc, as BDP but used for offroad.
BDX, 1993 cc and up, well tuned engines based on BDG.

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...4353-BD-Series

[tony griffiths]

Only comment I can make following from the above is that Cosworth never used an alloy block for the BDG -- they were all done by other engine builders. The Willment Escort, used an alloy block BDG built by Racing Services. The BDX was a John Dunn, Swindon Racing, development of the BDG and was the engine to have for F2 !

[phoenix]

One source I have - the book "Cosworth - the search for power" by Graham Robson, says that Brian Hart designed the first alloy block (that Ford used) for the BD. It/they were cast by Sterling Metals and machined by Brian Hart Ltd in 1972. Brain Hart was developing the block to get the BDA closer to the 2 litre limit of Formula 2, which was what his business was centred on in the early 70s. The design was adopted by Ford who put it into production. The book doesn't say whether Ford cast the blocks themselves or if another foundry was used. The book suggest these Ford blocks were used by Cosworth after initial objections from Keith Duckworth (mainly "Not Invented Here" objections) were ovecome. Of course Brian Hart had previously worked for Cosworth but left, so maybe that had something to do with it! Cosworth themselves did not build the 1600 BDAs for Ford either - they weren't big enough.

[Mike Bell]

Phoenix, out of curiosity what prompted your original question regarding BDG? History documents that Mk1 RS1600 raced and rallied internationally with circa 2 litre alloy blocked engine from late 1972 onwards. Seems then it was still called a BDA, regardless of capacity or who built the engine.

It's almost like one of those riddles- When does a 2 litre BDA become a BDG?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

I thought if they had used something else Dogboxes were allowed back then but not today.

Johan, you are correct- App J allowed homologated gearboxes up to end of 1975 OR a different one under (deep breath) 'optional equipment which may be recognised with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars'. All info I have seen about Zakspeed suggests they used homologated ZF synchromesh box. I have not read of them taking advantage of the above rule, and the ZF was by then well developed and proven in Escort installation.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

It's almost like one of those riddles- When does a 2 litre BDA become a BDG?

I guess that sums up my question pretty well. Do you know the answer?

[tony griffiths]

Cosworth spec sheet for the BDG -- Issue 1-4.10.76 but will double check !
The Willment Escort had an alloy block and I think that dates back to around 1972. We also had a Rally Escort with another Racing Services BDG that was sponsored by The Who and driven by two members of the London constabulary ..... which I had to drive home occasionally .........

[Mike Bell]

Sorry Phoenix, I don't know the answer but like you am interested in what it is! Problem is that nowadays any 2 litre version of the engine seems to be rightly or wrongly referred to as a 'BDG'.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here-

The production alloy block 1601cc BDA used Ford-funded casting from Sterling Metals to start with or another foundry later, and this block could not safely go beyond 86.75mm bore- hence reason Mk2 RS1800 was 'only' 1835cc.

BDG was Cosworth designation for their alloy block 2 litre version of the BD engine which didn't see light of day until possibly late 1976. Until then all their BD engine family were iron block.

All other alloy block 2 litre versions before this date were made by Hart or someone else, so cannot accurately be described as BDG.

2 litre alloy rally and race engines used by Boreham in Mk1 and early Mk2 Escorts were built by Hart. What about Broadspeed and Zakspeed- did they also use Hart blocks?

Lastly that leads me to ask another question- what is the difference between Cosworth BDG block and Hart 2 litre block? Are the head and other engine components interchangeable?

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

2 litre alloy rally and race engines used by Boreham in Mk1 and early Mk2 Escorts were built by Hart. What about Broadspeed and Zakspeed- did they also use Hart blocks?

Lastly that leads me to ask another question- what is the difference between Cosworth BDG block and Hart 2 litre block? Are the head and other engine components interchangeable?

Good questions !!

What about other engine components?

Zak engine:

1996ccm
89,9 mm Bore
77,6 mm Stroke
30,6 mm exhaust valves
36,2 mm inlet valves
Compression ratio max. 12:1

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Sorry Phoenix, I don't know the answer but like you am interested in what it is! Problem is that nowadays any 2 litre version of the engine seems to be rightly or wrongly referred to as a 'BDG'.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here-

The production alloy block 1601cc BDA used Ford-funded casting from Sterling Metals to start with or another foundry later, and this block could not safely go beyond 86.75mm bore- hence reason Mk2 RS1800 was 'only' 1835cc.

BDG was Cosworth designation for their alloy block 2 litre version of the BD engine which didn't see light of day until possibly late 1976. Until then all their BD engine family were iron block.

All other alloy block 2 litre versions before this date were made by Hart or someone else, so cannot accurately be described as BDG.

2 litre alloy rally and race engines used by Boreham in Mk1 and early Mk2 Escorts were built by Hart. What about Broadspeed and Zakspeed- did they also use Hart blocks?

Lastly that leads me to ask another question- what is the difference between Cosworth BDG block and Hart 2 litre block? Are the head and other engine components interchangeable?

Only slight correction I would make, from information I have from two or three sources and supposing it is correct, is that BDG is a Cosworth project designation. The project dates from 1973 and was for a 1975cc iron blocked engine for Formula 2 and rallying (mentioned above in this thread) and was a development of the 1790cc iron blocked BDE and 1927cc BDF engines.

The BDF did not rely on overboring the original Ford block, but instead had separate liners brazed (or maybe vacuum welded) into the iron ford block. I presume the BDG used the same technique.

Unless companies other than Hart also took on the huge cost of designing and casting an alloy block, I would guess that any alloy blocked engine of 1972 vintage was of Hart origin and maybe from 1973 of Ford (or the foundry they used) origin.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

Good questions !!

What about other engine components?

Zak engine:

1996ccm
89,9 mm Bore
77,6 mm Stroke
30,6 mm exhaust valves
36,2 mm inlet valves
Compression ratio max. 12:1

That bore and stroke is the same as a BDF and gives 1927.2cc. The BDF was an iron blocked motor and the Cosworth date for the BDF project was 1972, according to the references I have.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Only slight correction I would make, from information I have from two or three sources and supposing it is correct, is that BDG is a Cosworth project designation. The project dates from 1973 and was for a 1975cc iron blocked engine for Formula 2 and rallying (mentioned above in this thread) and was a development of the 1790cc iron blocked BDE and 1927cc BDF engines.

The BDF did not rely on overboring the original Ford block, but instead had separate liners brazed (or maybe vacuum welded) into the iron ford block. I presume the BDG used the same technique.

Unless companies other than Hart also took on the huge cost of designing and casting an alloy block, I would guess that any alloy blocked engine of 1972 vintage was of Hart origin and maybe from 1973 of Ford (or the foundry they used) origin.

Thanks Phoenix, So original Cosworth BDG was iron block and alloy block version followed. I remember reading about the amount of work with liners required to get 2 litres from the (711 presumably?) iron block! Interestingly, according to one Ford historian, Zakspeed used such an engine for reliablity reasons until the alloy blocks were proven. Guess that as some of the ETCC races were 6 hours they needed to be cautious.

Hopefully very soon I will be collecting a '2 litre alloy block BD series' engine from John Wilcox (who was involved with Escorts in the period we are discussing) after rebuild so will ask him what he can add to the 'BDG as built by Cosworth' story.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thanks Phoenix, So original Cosworth BDG was iron block and alloy block version followed. I remember reading about the amount of work with liners required to get 2 litres from the (711 presumably?) iron block! Interestingly, according to one Ford historian, Zakspeed used such an engine for reliablity reasons until the alloy blocks were proven. Guess that as some of the ETCC races were 6 hours they needed to be cautious.

Hopefully very soon I will be collecting a '2 litre alloy block BD series' engine from John Wilcox (who was involved with Escorts in the period we are discussing) after rebuild so will ask him what he can add to the 'BDG as built by Cosworth' story.

It would be good to get some first-hand knowledge from someone like Mr Wilcox. Also, if you could ask him about the origins of early and later alloy blocks that would be useful i.e was there any source other than Hart/Ford.

I have noted that on the Safari Rally of that period, early alloy blocked engines in Ford Escorts were substituted for iron block engines for greater reliability.

The Cosworth book refers to Peter Ashcroft nagging the foundry at Ford to get some '711' iron castings changed so that larger bores (up to 87mm) could be accommodated for competition engines. These were referred to as 'Ashcroft Blocks' in-house but they weren't designated as a special block - i.e. no special casting numbers. 87mm bore gives 1845cc with a standard crank. It would seem likely that some of these blocks found their way to Cosworth due to the close connection. Cosworth themselves appear to have been more cautious with boring the blocks for the BDE which was bored to suit DVF pistons it seems - 3.373" or 85.674mm giving just under 1790cc with the standard crank.

[jsvahn]

Not engine related..
http://www.classicdriver.de/uk/find/...&dealerid=1337

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by phoenix

It would be good to get some first-hand knowledge from someone like Mr Wilcox. Also, if you could ask him about the origins of early and later alloy blocks that would be useful i.e was there any source other than Hart/Ford.

I'm sure if John isn't too busy when I collect my engine he will be able to relate a lot of period info. Just have to remember it all......

Just found the following (which am sure Phoenix you already know) in history of BDR version as used by Caterham-

"To achieve the maximum two litre capacity allowed in the revised 1972 Formula 2 the cylinder bores had to be milled out and oversize liners vacuum welded into the iron block. Welding cast iron is even in today's modern times a very specialised process and, understandably, even Cosworth entrusted this to a specialist firm in Colnbrook. This complex process resulted, after an interim development (the BDF) in the immensely successful BDG, which produced 275 Bhp at 9250rpm."

Johan, I remember that car for sale. Not one of Zakspeeds own cars, but interesting history none the less.

[tony griffiths]

Cosworth only produced BD series engines with iron blocks till at least the late 70's.
The BDG originated in 1970 but a bunch of engine builders used the alloy block.
The BDX was around 1975 with bigger valves, 10mm plugs, different cams. Havent a clue if you could use a Hart head on a regular BDG block but certainly Hart used different metering unit drive etc and tried to make his engines unique before moving onto the 420 engine.
Was told that Fort built there own engines for their rally cars .......

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by tony griffiths

Was told that Ford built there own engines for their rally cars .......

You would have thought so but according to 'The Works Escorts' that Graham Robsom wrote in latter half of 1970s, Hart was closely involved all way through development of BD- enough to suggest that their engines were put together in his workshops.

Also tells the story of Hart's first 2 litre alloy block when Ashcroft literally tripped over it in the workshop. Does sound as if although that block was basis of the Ford 2 litre competition engines (with the siamezed bores that Duckworth rejected) the '1601cc' production alloy BDA block was cast from different Ford requested / Hart made patterns by Stirling metals. That would explain why the production alloy BDA could only be taken to 1835cc. At the time book was written (published 1977) Keith Duckworth confirmed that all their engines used Iron blocks.

In a later chapter Robson writes that "Hart has supplied engines to Zakspeed on many occasions"- presumably when they weren't using Iron block 2 litre engines that must have used Cosworth BDG blocks? Also mentions that Cosworth supplied a lot of internal components to Hart for his alloy block 2 litre engine, which suggests important dimensions were common.

[tony griffiths]

Mike,

As I commented I can not comment on the Hart engines ! At Nicholsons we did few BDG's our main emphasis was developing the Chevy Vega engine for F2.
John Dunn really developed the iron block BDG.
And as I said I was told that Ford did their own engines -- used to know the Ford AVO crowd quite well and again never heard any reference to Brian Hart.

Would be interesting to know the history ... will see what I kind out out but most of the characters are disappearing .......

Tony

[Mike Bell]

Tony, you are spot on about the characters disappearing. Sad but true.

Problem then is that we will only have written information or that passed on by word of mouth, both of which can become distorted for a multitude of reasons! A lot of the time it doesn't really matter, but every once in while it makes a big difference to someone- for instance, an owner trying to get their car accepted for a race series or trader needing to accurately describe a car for sale.

In meantime, keep asking- I'll be doing the same!