[DTM] 2009: News, Rumours, Entries, ...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

If you consider DTM a waste of time, don't waste your time in this thread.

Topic is DTM 2009.

Having a low opinion of the series does not preclude me from discussing it. I have not gone off topic.

I don't mind Ralf racing in DTM. He fits. Mercedes are, however, wasting their junior driver's time with it. Renault, Toyota and Red Bull, for instance, have placed placed their drivers in GP2 or World Series by Renault and brought up Buemi, Kovalainen, Vettel and Nakajima to F1 recently. Mercedes have let their talents waste away their careers here - Paffett, di Resta, Green, all Euro/German F3 champions who should have done GP2. Audi snatched two of Porsche's prototype drivers for what? To use for blocking against Schneider? I have no issue with people like Schneider or Ekström in the series, but single seater talents should stay clear unless they're actively looking for F1 Career Death. Buurman, for instance, was on his way to a Mercedes drive several times but in the end stuck it out, and thank god he did so.

[Ola]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Having a low opinion of the series does not preclude me from discussing it. I have not gone off topic.

I don't mind Ralf racing in DTM. He fits. Mercedes are, however, wasting their junior driver's time with it. Renault, Toyota and Red Bull, for instance, have placed placed their drivers in GP2 or World Series by Renault and brought up Buemi, Kovalainen, Vettel and Nakajima to F1 recently. Mercedes have let their talents waste away their careers here - Paffett, di Resta, Green, all Euro/German F3 champions who should have done GP2. Audi snatched two of Porsche's prototype drivers for what? To use for blocking against Schneider? I have no issue with people like Schneider or Ekström in the series, but single seater talents should stay clear unless they're actively looking for F1 Career Death. Buurman, for instance, was on his way to a Mercedes drive several times but in the end stuck it out, and thank god he did so.

Maybe the goal of putting yourself in a career as a professional and paid racing driver ranks higher than trying to get to one of the 18 seats in F1 at any cost?

The error you are making, in my opinion, is that you in this discussion tend to see it as F1 at all costs and everything leads to F1. I think that unless you can secure a manufacturer talent programme contract at an early age and get to one of maybe six competitive GP2-seats, you have to think about more than F1 as a career path in motorsport.

In that respect, DTM is a very good option and I think if you ask any European-based racing driver, you would have a hard time finding anyone saying they wouldn't want to be in the position of guys like Scheider, Ekström, Kristensen, Spengler, Schneider, Paffett etc.

But if you are an aspiring F1-driver then DTM is of course not a career path. For that you need multi-million contracts at the age of 17, contracts with a manufacturer involved in F1 and a clear path and a sponsor pool ready to pay for a highly competitive F3-seat for tow seasons followed by at least one season in one of only six good seats in GP2. Then you only have at most 18 seats available for you in F1.

I think many drivers have to think beyond that and work on other options and there I think DTM fits in great. We have examples of Swedish driver(s) who made the mistake of maybe looking too much at F1 and nothing at all at the broader, wider picture.

[stedevil]

How many drivers are there in GP2? How many of them dream of F1 careers? How many of them actually get the chance? How big holes in your pockets does running in GP2 give you, especially if you do not succeed?

If one factors in how many drivers that want to also get to F1 in the series, the success/failure rate, I think the picture is less clearly in GP2s favour. Also add how much money they earned/lost in the process running GP2 vs DTM, and I think DTM -> F1 doesnt look a whole lot worse over all.

But of course, if you do rise to the top of GP2, competing vs a whole grid full of people with their eyes set on F1, it's a larger door opener than DTM for sure. But if you only end up in the mid field, you just flushed down your F1 dreams in the toilet spending a lot of your money doing it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

How many drivers are there in GP2? How many of them dream of F1 careers? How many of them actually get the chance? How big holes in your pockets does running in GP2 give you, especially if you do not succeed?

If one factors in how many drivers that want to also get to F1 in the series, the success/failure rate, I think the picture is less clearly in GP2s favour. Also add how much money they earned/lost in the process running GP2 vs DTM, and I think DTM -> F1 doesnt look a whole lot worse over all.

But of course, if you do rise to the top of GP2, competing vs a whole grid full of people with their eyes set on F1, it's a larger door opener than DTM for sure. But if you only end up in the mid field, you just flushed down your F1 dreams in the toilet spending a lot of your money doing it.

I agree.
F1 is not the universe. Jimmy, do you think Capello, Kristensen, Priaulx, Yvan Muller, Loeb and so many great drivers who raced in other series rather than Formula One wasted their talent? Dtm drivers get paid to race, are professional drivers and when they look back at their career they can be proud of having reached such a high profile series. Many drivers in F1 get paid less than those who race in Dtm and have less chances to win. Maybe racing in a Force India and scoring no points is not a higher point in one's career than winning the Dtm series.

[Aslak Vind]

Tom Kristensen actually started in the DTM, AFTER his Formula One efforts where he tested in F1 for Williams, Minardi, BAR Honda and was the lead testdriver for Michelin tiredevelopment in Formula 1, clocking more than 4500 kms in Stewart and Williams racers.

I know that Tom is happy racing in the DTM series, and doesnt feel he is wasting his time.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I agree.
F1 is not the universe. Jimmy, do you think Capello, Kristensen, Priaulx, Yvan Muller, Loeb and so many great drivers who raced in other series rather than Formula One wasted their talent? Dtm drivers get paid to race, are professional drivers and when they look back at their career they can be proud of having reached such a high profile series. Many drivers in F1 get paid less than those who race in Dtm and have less chances to win. Maybe racing in a Force India and scoring no points is not a higher point in one's career than winning the Dtm series.

Of course F1 is not the universe. But Paffet and di Resta would have gotten there, and deservedly so, if Mercedes had actually cared about developing their young talents. The reason why DTM is a waste of time for 90% of the grid is that they have nothing to do; they're just field fillers. Never intended to accomplish anything during the season other than act as support for the two to four top men. Compare with sports cars, with all of its independent entries. If DTM was 2-4 works cars from Audi and Merc respecively and the rest were independets I would have less of an issue with it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Of course F1 is not the universe. But Paffet and di Resta would have gotten there, and deservedly so, if Mercedes had actually cared about developing their young talents. The reason why DTM is a waste of time for 90% of the grid is that they have nothing to do; they're just field fillers. Never intended to accomplish anything during the season other than act as support for the two to four top men. Compare with sports cars, with all of its independent entries. If DTM was 2-4 works cars from Audi and Merc respecively and the rest were independets I would have less of an issue with it.

So is someone fighting for the midfield, like Piquet or Rosberg, wasting his time in F1? Same thing in that series, all works entries except a few who are not competitive. And maybe Paffet and di Resta will get there anyway. If they don't it's because McLaren has 2 great drivers.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

The reason why DTM is a waste of time for 90% of the grid is that they have nothing to do;

Since you say 90% and we have 8 cars of latest model, certainly within reach of podium finishes, are you saying the DTM grid is 80 cars large? And how does that compare to F1 BTW? It's a pretty rare situation that we have 8+ cars out of 20 that has anything to do with podium finishes, at least IMO. What we did have 2-3 years back in the DTM, with ridiculous blockings and manufacturer orders, was really bad. But they cleaned it up a lot last year.

[Ola]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Of course F1 is not the universe. But Paffet and di Resta would have gotten there, and deservedly so, if Mercedes had actually cared about developing their young talents.

How can you be so sure? Di Resta hade no money for a GP2 seat in 2007 and without that he would never have gotten to F1. His choiced was pretty much doing nothing or getting a contract with MB driving in DTM.

Paffett actually got a chance he took in F1 but did so by turning down DTM. Apparently Mercedes didn't think he was good enough for a raceseat since they put other drivers in their cars instead of Paffett. No other team picked up Paffett either which tells you something .... I don't think any of them would have gotten to F1. The good thing is that they didn't turn a blind eye to anything except F1 which gave them a career as racingdrivers. A comparison is Alx Danielsson who did just that, turned a blind eye to anything but F1 and today he seems to be out of motorsport completely as a paid active driver.

So - DTM is not a waste of time is what I am saying. Is one of many ways to get a paid career as a racingdriver and not everyone can be F1-drivers. Not even everyone winning in F3 as history has shown. It takes more than that, and very few reach beyond that.

Di Resta and Paffett didn't but luckily for them they had other options.

The reason why DTM is a waste of time for 90% of the grid is that they have nothing to do; they're just field fillers. Never intended to accomplish anything during the season other than act as support for the two to four top men. Compare with sports cars, with all of its independent entries. If DTM was 2-4 works cars from Audi and Merc respecively and the rest were independets I would have less of an issue with it.

Well in F1 only four drivers from two teams have realistic chances to fight for the championship year in and year out. Are the others wasting their time?

[Alex K]

If Mercedes didn't care about their drivers they wouldn't be paid racing in DTM or testing F1 cars. I don't mind seeing Di Resta on footpath to F1, BUT... Mercedes should've pay the GP2 bill (remember Paffett and Di Resta are skinned), with all add-ons it would've been up to even £1.8/year!! WHAT's the point from Mercedes point of view? Instead they put him in DTM car and he gets paid!! I'd say, putting Di Resta in GP2 would be a waste of time, money... and probably his talent, if I was him, and had an option I would stay with Merc in DTM, it's probably a long shot MANUFACTURER deal.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Ola

Well in F1 only four drivers from two teams have realistic chances to fight for the championship year in and year out. Are the others wasting their time?

No - as I said, they're racing for something. In DTM the majority of the field is just support drivers.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

No - as I said, they're racing for something. In DTM the majority of the field is just support drivers.

Are you saying that Fisichella, Sutil, Sato (when he was in the SA), Ide and many more were wasting their time? Not everyone can win...
Legge, Stoddart and so on have the same role Fisi, Sutil and so on have.

[gwyllion]

Audi confirms unchanged line-up

[Ola]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

No - as I said, they're racing for something. In DTM the majority of the field is just support drivers.

I agree with you that there is a problem in DTM with the set-up of the two manufacturers and their teams. DTM has allowed this to evolve a bit out of control after Opel left the series.

But I would never agree with you that they 1: race for nothing and 2: DTM is a waste of time for a racing driver. I think you make a logical fault when you argue that and assumes any racing driver no matter whom always strive to reach F1. I don't think that is correct.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Ola

I agree with you that there is a problem in DTM with the set-up of the two manufacturers and their teams. DTM has allowed this to evolve a bit out of control after Opel left the series.

But I would never agree with you that they 1: race for nothing and 2: DTM is a waste of time for a racing driver. I think you make a logical fault when you argue that and assumes any racing driver no matter whom always strive to reach F1. I don't think that is correct.

1 is correct, they do race for something. To help the no.1 driver of the make. That's why DTM is a waste of time for most of the drivers in the field, just like I think Rubens was wasting his time in the second Ferrari seat. I've already said F1 isn't everything (hence why Ekström, Schneider and so on fits nicely here), but some drivers quite clearly would rather be in F1 (Paffett), and would have gotten there with a little support.

---

How is Audi's lineup "unchanged"? Yes, they retain most of their 08 drivers. But Albers and TME is gone (TME to Le Mans Series, Albers where?), while Legge gets an 08 car from Abt (which becomes a five car team).

[Aslak Vind]

Anyone with any ideas where Albers will go from now?

No privateer Audi team in the DTM anymore, maybe Kolles TME in the LMS?

Longshot: Back to Mercedes?

[Ola]

I think he will be looking at GT- and sportscarracing. Of course it also depends on the sponsorship he might have.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

1 is correct, they do race for something. To help the no.1 driver of the make.

There are no nr1 driver in DTM. We saw plenty of 08 Audies, as well as 08 Mercs, heavily fighting each other for position. Much harder fighting in fact than you would ever see between teammates in eg F1 (here it btw often is just 1 nr 1 driver).

How is Audi's lineup "unchanged"?

Yeah, I thought that was a very weird statement as well. Alberts certainly didnt make a fool out of himself last season in that 06 Audi.

[helterskelter]

They probably meant that there was no new driver this year. Surely the 'unchanged lineup' sounds a little weird... They should have chosen the words more carefully

[AX lover]

Maybe Ferrari This is supposed to be his new 430 Scuderia:
pics: http://www.autojunk.nl/pix/view/152466
vid: http://www.autojunk.nl/clips/view/152464

[RichardRenes]

I am hoping the long shot Aslak

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Anyone with any ideas where Albers will go from now?

No privateer Audi team in the DTM anymore, maybe Kolles TME in the LMS?

Longshot: Back to Mercedes?

LMS with Kolles would seem to be the logical explanation.

[flor]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Anyone with any ideas where Albers will go from now?

No privateer Audi team in the DTM anymore, maybe Kolles TME in the LMS?

Longshot: Back to Mercedes?

A part of the team will run LMS and will be based in Greding(GER) and another part will run the Kolles & Heinz VW F3 works team from Luxembourg

[flor]

ok, apparently they will still run 2 cars in the dtm according to their homepage

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by flor

ok, apparently they will still run 2 cars in the dtm according to their homepage

So that means 11 Audis and 9 Mercs on the grid this year?