[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 23

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Look - it was a terrible race, hence we have debates about weird stewarding and feisty fathers. Hopefully we get a decent race next time, and then we have something posative to discuss (although it is the Australian and Azerbijan GPs next, so we might have to wait a bit longer yet for a decent reace). There were plenty of good races last season, and hopefully we get some this time around too.

Oz can throw up a good one occasionally, probably needs one or two guys recovering from a penal and the odd SC!

Baku normally does provide a good race, admittedly because of some freak incident or two, but that's gives what is otherwise a fairly bland and uninviting venue a reason to bee on the calendar imho.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why should F1 pander to 'motorsport fans' and not Netflix viewers?

And can huge exposure from Netflix not also mean those same viewers are motorsport fans?

Or does being a 'motorsport fan' and wanting commercial success for F1 have to be exclusively separate?

F1 is a sport. It should pander to fans or enthusiasts. The race was run on a purpose built circuit in a country where money is the be-all and end-all. The circuit itself may as well be a fully enclosed tunnel since there's no viewpoints remotely accessible to the "fans". If motorsport is not for the fans it stops being a sport and is simply a business. Since I can be almost certain the only "spectators" in Jeddah were friends of the organisers and random B listers, this is just another nail in the coffin.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

F1 is a sport. It should pander to fans or enthusiasts. The race was run on a purpose built circuit in a country where money is the be-all and end-all. The circuit itself may as well be a fully enclosed tunnel since there's no viewpoints remotely accessible to the "fans". If motorsport is not for the fans it stops being a sport and is simply a business. Since I can be almost certain the only "spectators" in Jeddah were friends of the organisers and random B listers, this is just another nail in the coffin.

I think the fans you are referring to there are a 3rd group.

You have Netflix viewers (looking for the drama), race viewers (looking for the contest) and spectators (wanting to experience in person).

IMO, if you target the 3rd group, then it would be an even bigger nail. The commercial scale of F1 means that it needs broadcast rights for revenue generation. The ability to focus on the spectators first left on a ship that sailed in 1968.

What irks me a little bit is the seemingly elitist view that race viewers are more important than DTS viewers. F1 is more than just a sport, and interest comes from more than just the sporting contest.

I also think that F1 can deliver a sporting contest and a dramatic narrative, without one having to detract from the other.

[crmalcolm]

Time lapse race visualisation: https://twitter.com/f1visualized/sta...4nGQHW4CA&s=09

The Red Bull pace is evident, and I like the little Alonso touch at the end!

[chillibowl]

Are people still watching DTS in the same numbers? With Covid over and the show being fairly redundant (and largely manipulative), I suspect audiences have moved on to other programming and ratings for it have dropped?

No doubt F1 got a bump, even a big bump, from both DTS and a growing online/social presence, but these things don’t last forever and the crowd they attract are the first ones to move on to the next big thing.

Leaving us, just people who like motor racing watching on tv at home…largely as it’s always been no?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Time lapse race visualisation: https://twitter.com/f1visualized/sta...4nGQHW4CA&s=09

The Red Bull pace is evident, and I like the little Alonso touch at the end!

Damn those RBs are fast!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why should F1 pander to 'motorsport fans' and not Netflix viewers?

And can huge exposure from Netflix not also mean those same viewers are motorsport fans?

Or does being a 'motorsport fan' and wanting commercial success for F1 have to be exclusively separate?

If F1 should pander to F1 fans, rather than Netflix viewers, that's because it is the F1 fans that have kept the interest and the sport alive, over the decades. However, if Netflix can bring in viewers who will become F1 fans, that's got to be a good thing, both commercially and for the sport. It would be interesting to know how many of those who watched DTS became F1 fans.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If F1 should pander to F1 fans, rather than Netflix viewers, that's because it is the F1 fans that have kept the interest and the sport alive, over the decades. However, if Netflix can bring in viewers who will become F1 fans, that's got to be a good thing, both commercially and for the sport. It would be interesting to know how many of those who watched DTS became F1 fans.

Worth remembering that we have a large number of people in the UK who watch F1 nowadays because of Hamilton's presence.

Way back in 2014 I had a long chat with a group of lads from Brixton & Camberwell at the British GP. They were absolutely not your stereotypical F1 fans, the only logos they had were on the brand new baseball caps they'd bought (the Merc star), all the gold chains and signet rings (and teeth!). They were utterly amazed by the speed of the cars, and that was just the GP2 cars

Fast-forward to 2022, Sunday lunchtime, I went for a stroll into one of the fan zones to find some friends. Someone approached me, I expected to be asked "where's Copse?" or something, but no - it was one of the same group from 2014, still watching, and in fact had travelled to some European races. He'd spotted me from a distance and decided to come and say hello. That was nice

[Aysedasi]

That's a rather uplifting story there Graeme....

[Greem]

I'll be honest Andrew, I was rather taken aback that he was still watching and remembered me! Total coincidence really, the odds of it happening (140000 spectators, 1 of me) are pretty well vanishingly small.

Lewis has a legacy. I expect Max will in the Netherlands in 10 or so years, too.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

no it isn't. If you cannot see the direction F1 has moved in then I suggest you open your eyes.

I'm sure commercially it's great, the exposure it gets for the Netflicks lovers will be huge but motorsport fans who actually care about the integrity of the sport have been alienated.

All while drivers aren't allowed to express their opinions, the debate about an ear ring is bigger than the debate about racing in Saudi. If you can't see the bigger issues here I feel sorry for you. Stick to Netflicks

How so very gatekeeper of you.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I have now seen that one too.

To me, it looks like Checo goes to his team and everyone except for Jos makes an effort to congratulate him, with clear signs of jubilation.
On this pass, Jos 'blanks' him.

Then, Checo starts to break from the hugs and is ready to move away, at which point a few handshakes are exchanged including a reciprocal one with Jos.

Do I think Jos was upset about Checo winning - yes.
Do I think he let that feeling show - yes.
Do I think he then gave a moment of recognition - yes.

we kind of agreed in the end

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why should F1 pander to 'motorsport fans' and not Netflix viewers?

And can huge exposure from Netflix not also mean those same viewers are motorsport fans?

Or does being a 'motorsport fan' and wanting commercial success for F1 have to be exclusively separate?

Yes - it's absolutely shocking that Formula One has expanded its fan base, bringing in interest and money to keep the sport alive. Absolutely awful

Here's a hot take: People that hate on the new fanbase for ruining F1 as if they have no right to take up a new interest are worse than the problem they blather on about.

I've been into F1 since I was about 11 and I think it's fantastic so many new fans have joined. I'm no longer the weird one out of my friends for liking F1 this weird niche sport on at terrible hours to watch where loud cars drive around. Now I can talk about it with so many of my mates who don't know a whole lot about F1's history but are interested - and it's fantastic.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Yes - it's absolutely shocking that Formula One has expanded its fan base, bringing in interest and money to keep the sport alive. Absolutely awful

Don't you understand? F1 is supposed to remain the same and cater to an ever shrinking audience of aging legacy fans! After they (we) are all dead, they don't care if the sport evaporates away. Just as long as they (we again) get serviced correctly NOW!

Richard

[chillibowl]

lol. dont disagree with any of that but its important to acknowledge that one day we will eventually age into the old gatekeepers getting pushed out by fans with more modern sensibilities.

of which i thought i was one says the DRS guy!

actually cant help but feel it happening to me right now when it comes to this bird's eye helmet cam with its ridiculous use of lens flare/glare which i can only surmise is relevant to those who like to post stylized ticktok and instagram videos with a vintage filter pre loaded.

and its made dramatically even more frustrating given the actual level of picture quality/clarity they can achieve with their current cameras and ai enhancement program. its like an intentional step backwards to VHS quality and i dont get it!

apparently i have something like 20+ feeds to choose from now..stick the retro feed on one of those channels please!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

actually cant help but feel it happening to me right now when it comes to this bird's eye helmet cam with its ridiculous use of lens flare/glare which i can only surmise is relevant to those who like to post stylized ticktok and instagram videos with a vintage filter pre loaded.

The helmet cam (which I like ) is being discussed in the "uk f1 tv coverage" thread. And I don't think they are adding any lens flare/glare. I think that is all real. It is particularly bad for night races.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Don't you understand? F1 is supposed to remain the same and cater to an ever shrinking audience of aging legacy fans! After they (we) are all dead, they don't care if the sport evaporates away. Just as long as they (we again) get serviced correctly NOW!

Richard

Really Richard?
I thought that was Indycar......

Seriously though
I enjoy watching Indycar more than F1.
And yes, Saudi Arabian GP was predictable... Until after the podium ceremony...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Really Richard?
I thought that was Indycar......

Ha! Maybe it is. I "think" you know I was joking right?

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Seriously though
I enjoy watching Indycar more than F1.
And yes, Saudi Arabian GP was predictable... Until after the podium ceremony...

I used to be a big CART/Indycar fan. But stopped paying attention a long time ago (right at the CART/Indycar split). I should get back and watch it. But I have limited time to watch motorsports so I end up spending it on F1. Even if the races can be boring much of the time.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It would be interesting to know how many of those who watched DTS became F1 fans.

On the F1 viewer question, and related to DTS popularity - I came across this article today - https://www.geektown.co.uk/2023/03/2...-reality-show/

A few points I took from the article:

'[Liberty's] efforts have truly paid off with global viewing figures rising steadily, including a 3% rise in 2021 alone.'

'There is no doubt that [DTS] has been a big driver of new fans who have fallen in love with the sport after learning about Formula 1, its teams, and its drivers on the popular streaming service.'

'Drive to Survive is made entirely of interviews and race footage, none of which is predetermined in any way. Instead, the creative license comes from the editing of the footage. Therefore, it isn’t quite fair to compare it to some reality TV shows that are entirely fictional.'

[morninggents]

I suspect the increase in F1s popularity is more related to relief from Mercedes 7 year domination.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I suspect the increase in F1s popularity is more related to relief from Mercedes 7 year domination.

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

I think people came back in 2021, because another team and driver were able to take on Mercedes and Hamilton and could potentially win the WDC and WCC. It wasn't without a good dose of on track drama either, with the incidents at Silverstone and Monza, which brought an intensity to the season that hadn't been seen for a long time.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

I don't think people came back because Mercedes dominance ended.
I doubt that many of those who decried Mercedes dominance did so because of the brand dominance.
It may have been because of Hamilton dominance, which may have had other contingencies besides his results record, but we had seen periods almost as long in Vettel/RBR dominance and in Ferrari Schumacher dominance which did not alienate people as much as Hamilton's domination.

Now we are entering a period of RBR/ Verstappen dominance which will likely continue unabated until the end of 2025 barring a revision of rules and regulations that handicaps the leading protagonists.

This would be consistent with the gradual emergence of the technical side of the sport which has consistently demonstrated increasingly that even though the time gaps between the first and last car on the grid have decreased the probability of brand or team dominance across a season has gradually but steadily increased since the late 80's and early 90's.

The technical side in design and construction has become a dominant factor.
So despite attempts to split the differences and make the whole circus more open over the last thirty years there have been a persistent tendency to have one or two dominant teams across any given season.

We have still had some brilliant racing but a friend of mine posted a result sheet from the 67 Monanco GP the other day that highlighted the difference some 56 years ago when I was a boy.
1. Hulme (Brabham), G. Hill (Lotus-BRM), Amon (Ferrari), McLaren (McLaren-BRM), Rodreguez (Cooper Maserati) and Spence (BRM).

The starting Grid (first twelve)
Brabham (Brabham), Surtees (Honda), Bandini (Ferrari), Hulme (Brabham), Clark (Lotus), Gurney (Gurney), Stewart (BRM), Hill (Lotus), Siffert (Cooper), McLaren (McLaren), Servoz-Gavin (Matra), Spence (BRM).

That sort of variety and the unpredictability of an outcome made GP racing great in terms of outcome. It was a contest of titans.
Now it is a technical exercise and the drivers are simply players.

Perhaps the success of DTS is that it focusses on the drivers as personalities and gives a backdrop to the technical competition behind the scenes that most casual observers are not aware of.

What DTS has done is given a stage to the real 'Battle of the Titans', which is for most part behind the scenes, and the race is just the outplay on the stage.
That struggle to survive technically and build a career as a driver is now highlighted which gives meaning to the play on the stage.
Now people who would not normally attend the GP to watch a play, now understand the meaning and struggle behind it.
That struggle and battle is now comprehended.

That is what DTS has done to give meaning to the play, which is often not that entertaining if you don't have a context to give it meaning.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Perhaps the success of DTS is that it focusses on the drivers as personalities and gives a backdrop to the technical competition behind the scenes that most casual observers are not aware of.

What DTS has done is given a stage to the real 'Battle of the Titans', which is for most part behind the scenes, and the race is just the outplay on the stage.
That struggle to survive technically and build a career as a driver is now highlighted which gives meaning to the play on the stage.
Now people who would not normally attend the GP to watch a play, now understand the meaning and struggle behind it.
That struggle and battle is now comprehended.

That is what DTS has done to give meaning to the play, which is often not that entertaining if you don't have a context to give it meaning.

A Brilliant summation of the effect of DTS
DTS also puts on show to the technical background and the "politics" to those of us with an interest in what goes on behind the scenes (even if it is edited to entertain rather than inform).

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.' But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

Having been interested and involved in motorsport all my life (my father, brother, myself and my son have all competed) and having attended my first GP at Silverstone in 1958 and several times since (last time in 2012) I can tell you that I was one of those people that totally turned off F1 during the interminably long period of Mercedes domination between 2013 and 2020. The Verstappen/RedBull resurgence in 2021 came as a breath of fresh air and the last two seasons have rekindled my interest. Seems I am not alone.
I don't know what DTS is and it certainly had no part in my new found passion.