[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

IMO and many others the ACO should CLEARLY ( not in the spirit of) define:

1. what is a manufacture / works team?
2. and 'supported' manufacture / works team?
some teams only receive manufacture technical information and help, no money or parts. Where do these teams fit?

Why does ACO need to do this? To forbid manufacturers in certain classes? That would be very difficult to enforce...

ACO just has to slow down LMP2 to make clear that this is a privateer class. They could also forbid the use of certain expensive materials. Perhaps only homologated engines should be allowed (e.g., Sodemo BMW M3 V8 engine).

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Why does ACO need to do this? To forbid manufacturers in certain classes? That would be very difficult to enforce...

ACO just has to slow down LMP2 to make clear that this is a privateer class. They could also forbid the use of certain expensive materials.

Exactly it would be very difficult to enforce.

What is that 'CLEAR' statement of a privateer team?

[deggis]

Fantastic insight.

"If you reduce the speed, you reduce the cost and we want to reduce the cost"

It can't be that simple. Look at F1... some teams were spending half of their budget (about $200 millions) on engine development. Then it was freezed and now they're spending the same money at running wind tunnels. But I think that comment was mainly intented for other classes than LMP1.

And since it looks like sportscars might be going towards some golden years, I don't see how reducing costs really fits the picture when at the same time competition is getting tougher. Money is always going to be spent somewhere else...

I'm glad the "EVO" idea is still not dead. I don't like the idea of totally new class, there's already enough job to do with balance, but I really wouldn't mind seeing wider cockpits and hopefully less single-seater (nose) looks...

“Yes, a minimum and maximum is needed,” Plassart said. “Spectators want to see AND hear cars, so we must be sure we do not have too many cars that are silent.”

Couple of dBs higher maximum limit, please?

..

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

But I think that comment was mainly intented for other classes than LMP1.

Yes, it is mentioned explicitly in the article:

“If you reduce the speed, you reduce the cost and we want to reduce the cost, especially in LMP2 and the GT2. For LMP1 we said for Audi and Peugeot it's not a problem to invest what they desire. You know, I think it's a dream category. You need to have a dream. But for LMP2, you have to find the money to sponsor and so on, so we have to reduce the cost. It is not a place for dreaming.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by deggis

“Yes, a minimum and maximum is needed,” Plassart said. “Spectators want to see AND hear cars, so we must be sure we do not have too many cars that are silent.”

[AU N EGL]

WE WANT TO HEAR the cars.

Maybe Boise will sponsor some of the quieter cars and put BIG BOOMING SPEAKERS in them with sounds of the 1970s BIG engines.

[JAG]

I disagree with seperate diesel/petrol classes, especially when equivalency is 'relatively' simple thanks to restrictors and fuel tank sizes.

An independents cup could be an option, but does anyone take much notice of these sort of things. IMO LMP2 should be the de facto independents cup, with large LMP1 privateers recieving media attention amd recognition through giant killing performances and consistency.

The ACO are open to new technologies, with such freedom we may have to put up with a couple of years when one fuel/technology has a distinct advantage, before they are reigned in.

Going over old ground again I know, but it's worth pointing out 3.30 is the 'target' the ACO want for race laps. This is important as the diesels ran virtually identical laps in qualifying and the race, suggesting they had performance in hand, while the petrol cars were all a good few seconds off qualifying pace, and, in the main, over 3.30.

Restricting diesels heavily would help close both the performance gap, and go a long way to putting most of the P1 field around the ACO's 3.30 target zone, particularly after the rumoured aero changes. IMO, diesel speeds are distorting the percieved pace of P1 development, just as Penske Porsche did when they entered P2.

Move factories out of P2 and the class becomes much more managable, speeds and costs both stabalise. Likewise if the diesel 'problem' is sorted and brought back to petrol P1 pace, we can get back to regular, minor reg changes. Peugeot going 8 seconds quicker in qualifying at Le Mans this year was a combination of favourable regulations and a technology coming of age, it was a one off leap forward, comparable to turbo F1 engines and 4wd in rallying.

It could happen again with hybrids, but the ACO will have learnt lessons.

[AU N EGL]

forget the hybrids. Bring back the STP Granatelli turbines from the 67and 68 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:STP_Turbine.jpg

and run them on JP4 Jet fuel.

[deggis]

"ACO will have a rules announcement tomorrow @ 1100"

Says mariantic's page. That's British time.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by deggis

"ACO will have a rules announcement tomorrow @ 1100"

Says mariantic's page. That's British time.

New Rules? or press release with "spirit of the new rules" ??

[Matt]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

forget the hybrids. Bring back the STP Granatelli turbines from the 67and 68 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:STP_Turbine.jpg

and run them on JP4 Jet fuel.

Those must have sounded oh so cool. Especially on startup.

[gucom]

well I just had a discussion with my dad about the soundless diesels last week, and he said the turbine engined F1 cars were completely soundless as well (he watched them race at Zandvoort), only tyre and wind noise... and that was basically the same system as the STP Granatelli cars from what I gather

[ss_collins]

live from the rules announcement

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...f-le-mans.html

[gwyllion]

F1 style cost saving rule:

• two race engines for all LMS races
• LMP2 will only be allowed GT2 engines from 2011.

[deggis]

"Noise levels have come under the microscope and will be cut gradually from next year until the new rules come into force in 2011."

Even more muffling?! Or does that mean cutting the noise level regulation?

"LMP2 cars will only be allowed GT2 engines from 2011"

Smart way to exclude manufacturers from LMP2.

"and the ACO will push LMP1 into using the current LMP2 engines"

Smaller, less restricted engines? +1 for that. Makes more sense than upsizing engine sizes (e.g. now allowing 7 litre production engines, if that made to the final regs) when automotive industry is downsizing...

I don't like the idea of two race engines. Then again how much difference does that make in the end since the engines are practically made to last 24 hours?

[gwyllion]

The ACO tasked Gordon Murray and Bernard Dudot with developing the new regs.

...

The new LMP regulations have been delayed until 2011, as the results of the ongoing aerodynamic study started in the wake of the accidents at Le Mans and Monza. These regs will be revealed on November 15th.

Does this mean mandatory from 2011 on? Will the Audi R15 be built to the current LMP1 rules or the new "Evo" rules?

[ss_collins]

The main details are posted now. Frankly I think the noise cuts are silly. I think the R15 is a current regs car - giving it a 3 year life.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

I don't like the idea of two race engines. Then again how much difference does that make in the end since the engines are practically made to last 24 hours?

Tell that to Penske/Porsche

[deggis]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Frankly I think the noise cuts are silly.

Not even silly, just outright stupid.

I coincidentally started this thread yesterday: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109726

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

"and the ACO will push LMP1 into using the current LMP2 engines"

Smaller, less restricted engines? +1 for that. Makes more sense than upsizing engine sizes (e.g. now allowing 7 litre production engines, if that made to the final regs) when automotive industry is downsizing...

I find this a strange rule. Putting the LMP2 3.4 V8 in a LMP1 means more revs, more noise (and they want less) and lower reliability (and they want engines to last 2 LMS races).

Downsizing means adding a turbo.

[gwyllion]

Meanwhile Daniel Poissenot has revealed hybrids will be able to race from 2010. Any hybrid that starts an ACO race in 2009 will not be eligible for points and will not feature in the overall classification.

This suggests Peugeot will not race with 909H next year, nor that the Audi R15 will be a hybrid. The Acura could feature a hybrid drive train as they only plan to participate in ALMS.

[deggis]

I'm little surprised about the reception to hybrids. Little contradictory to wanting to be a test lab for manufacturers.

[brielga]

Just published them in PLM

[gwyllion]

I was only able to find the French version on http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans..._regl09_fr.pdf

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by deggis

And I'm little surprised about the reception to hybrids. Little contradictory to wanting to be a test lab for manufacturers.

Agree