BTCC 2006 News, Rumours, Entries...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hazard

No it wasn't...there were far less Super Touring class competitors in 2000.

And believe me, most series are held to ransom by one manufacturer!

(What if Ford quit Aussie V8's, or Mercedes DTM?)

I did say 'one' of the worst years in terms of grid turnout... I know its not THE worst. Still if we had gone the WTCC route instead of BTC, I don't think we would be in such a weak situation with numbers now.

Which goes to prove my point in terms of the second issue. We're talking here of the entire series being in trouble if a 3-car works team decides not to play. If the Ford, Holden or Mercedes WORKS teams packed up in their respective championships, it wouldn't make a great short term difference as there are such huge numbers of privateers. The privateer element of the BTCC lacks depth, and has done really since the Sierra Cosworth or even Capri days in the 80s and 70s.

[Craner Curves]

The DTM would collapse if Merc pulled out.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by redshoes

It's possible that TOCA would permit a local homolgation of a 3-door but since they already refused with the Varta cars that's unlikely.

Varta is an independent while Vauxhall could flex their Works status. OTOH, that would not be in the spirit of S2000 rules? And their resale value would severely be limited...

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If the Ford, Holden or Mercedes WORKS teams packed up in their respective championships, it wouldn't make a great short term difference as there are such huge numbers of privateers.

There are only 2 cars to each works team in the V8's, but the presence of a new car is by manufacturer support. If one manufacturer pulled out, there would be no cars for anyone to run by that marque, and anyone running with an old car would be committing instant performance suicide.

Mercedes hypothetically withdrawing the DTM would have much the same effect, also - I believe the manufacturer has to consent to these entries, hence the question whether Opel will allow privateers next season. To Opel, it's just placing their product in last place to bolster a grid - not exactly good press.

It's actually the BTCC that is most safe in terms of manufacturer withdrawal - but with the Seat risk already about, Vauxhall would be a big blow.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by Hazard

I believe the manufacturer has to consent to these entries, hence the question whether Opel will allow privateers next season. To Opel, it's just placing their product in last place to bolster a grid - not exactly good press.

Responding to press release of the '06 Opel pullout, Opel said they will be very supportive of Independents running the '05 cars in '06. More importantly, would any independent want to run the Vectra considering how much it struggled in '05 is another story. If the Vectras struggled so much as a Works team, could an indepdent do any better?

And supposedly, the 3 manufacturers had agreed to make their '05s('04s too??) "very affordable" to independents. Of course, affordable is a relative term. Does anyone know how much manufacturers are asking for the '00-present cars?

[davyboy]

I did say though that it wouldn't make a great SHORT TERM difference. For sure, medium and long term the withdrawal of manufacturers in any series is harmful, but short term, it would not kill the DTM or the Aussie championship. My point really was that presence or absence of Vauxhall's 3 works cars in the BTCC should not dictate the regulations of the championship which, IMO, should have gone WTCC a lot earlier. I think what we all want to see is 30-car grids with shed-loads of private wailing WTCC E46s and plenty of Alfas and Seats too. That will be the catalyst to get other manufacturers involved and we'll be back to the mid-1990s heyday [I hope].

[Lord X]

Very interesting that Alan Gow said if he'd not inherited the BTC-spec regs when he came back he'd've probably changed it to s2000 earlier.

[davyboy]

When Super Touring's days were done, I honestly thought that the logical step for us was S2000. Those quirky BTC rules just made no sense at all. I just don't know why they ever came about. Nuts !

[redshoes]

When Super Touring's days were done, I honestly thought that the logical step for us was S2000. Those quirky BTC rules just made no sense at all. I just don't know why they ever came about. Nuts !

When SuperTouring was over TOCA would have switched to S2000 had they existed at the time. ST stopped in 2000, S2000 didn't start until 2002, mainly because the FIA and the manufacturers could not agree what the regulations should be. If you want to talk about manufacturers holding a series to ransom there's yet another example.

For 2001 TOCA's options were
1) Continue with SuperTouring - With Honda and Ford already saying no you would have been left with one works team at best and a couple of indies
2) Don't run a series at all - Not a likely scenario
3) Adopt SuperProduction as a short term option and wait for the FIA finally sorted themselves out - possible but how many teams would support such a short term move, and as good as SP was the country's top series should be doing something better than that.
4) Develop their own regs which would hopefully be a close approximation to what the FIA were planning for their new formula (i.e what would become S2000)

Not surprisingly they went with the last option, and with teams wanting to be sure they were spending money on a cars with no future a agreement was reached for rule stability until 2006. Arguably the stability period could have been shorter but it needed to be there.

It's worth mentioning that in 1999 TOCA (with Alan Gow still in charge) worked on a proposal for a SuperTouring replacement due to happen in 2001. Although that proposal never got anywhere it's basic concept of standard parts is not dissimilar to the BTC-Tourer regs introduced in 2001.

Very interesting that Alan Gow said if he'd not inherited the BTC-spec regs when he came back he'd've probably changed it to s2000 earlier.

Easy to say and I'm sure whoever was in charge would say something similar. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. However if Gow had been still in charge during the 2000/2001 interim period I doubt the situation would be much different. He would still have agreed a stability period.

I'm not having a go at Alan Gow here, more that people are quoting him out of context and without understanding the history behind what's happened.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by redshoes

When SuperTouring was over TOCA would have switched to S2000 had they existed at the time. ST stopped in 2000, S2000 didn't start until 2002, mainly because the FIA and the manufacturers could not agree what the regulations should be.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't draft proposals for S2000 around in 2000 ? Weren't they what BMW and Alfa were debating ? Super Touring could certainly have ran out another year until 2002 so that S2000 was implemented. It was after all in its death throes for the previous 3 years.

I guess its all in the past now. Best to look forward and adopt S2000 for 2006 instead of 2007.

[rdjones]

I have just seen in this weeks Autosport that Dave Pinkney is looking to run one of this year Team Halfords Integra's next year.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Super Touring could certainly have ran out another year until 2002.

Please don't make sweeping, presumptious statements like that. Super Touring could not have continued!

Ford had already decided to pull out regardless, as had Honda. Vauxhalll were planning to continue, but they would have no-one to race! Apart from maybe Matt Neal in an old Dynamics Nissan.

Super Touring WOULD not have survived in 2001.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Please don't make sweeping, presumptious statements like that. Super Touring could not have continued! Ford had already decided to pull out regardless, as had Honda. Vauxhalll were planning to continue, but they would have no-one to race! Apart from maybe Matt Neal in an old Dynamics Nissan.

Why not ? Its only an opinion on what might have been. I'm not right and I'm not wrong because it didn't happen.
I believe that Super Touring was on its last legs in 2000 when the three car teams were introduced to try and force the numbers. We're in pretty much the same situation again now which is why I think we need to move to S2000 asap.

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Super Touring WOULD not have survived in 2001.

We don't know that for sure. I think the series would have hobbled along mainly with privateers... Vauxhalls would have blitzed the field, as they did anyways when BTC rules were introduced, and we could have had teams properly preparing entries for 2002.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by davyboy

We don't know that for sure. I think the series would have hobbled along mainly with privateers... Vauxhalls would have blitzed the field, as they did anyways when BTC rules were introduced, and we could have had teams properly preparing entries for 2002.

There would have been at most 5 cars.

[davyboy]

Well, its possible there would have been more. There were plenty gravitating into Formula Saloons where drivers ran them economically and the BTCC could have made a last blast effort to get more onto the grid for 2001 by making it more attractive for privateers. Its all academic as it never happened.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by kmchow

Responding to press release of the '06 Opel pullout, Opel said they will be very supportive of Independents running the '05 cars in '06. More importantly, would any independent want to run the Vectra considering how much it struggled in '05 is another story. If the Vectras struggled so much as a Works team, could an indepdent do any better?

And supposedly, the 3 manufacturers had agreed to make their '05s('04s too??) "very affordable" to independents. Of course, affordable is a relative term. Does anyone know how much manufacturers are asking for the '00-present cars?

There will be no Opels next season in DTM.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Well, its possible there would have been more. There were plenty gravitating into Formula Saloons where drivers ran them economically and the BTCC could have made a last blast effort to get more onto the grid for 2001 by making it more attractive for privateers. Its all academic as it never happened.

Its pretty much impossible. If the BTCC could have waited it would have, but it couldn't.

[BootsOntheSide]

Why would teams have put a lot of effort into learning to race cars for a 2001 Super-Touring campaign when the cars (and any acquired knowledge) would be useless a year later? The BTCC quickly gained 5 works manufacturers in the first 2 years, it's only circumstances which have resulted in little involvement now. Switching to S2000 a year early would not only be a kick in the teeth for Vauxhall, it would also send a bad message to manfacturers as to their overall significance.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't draft proposals for S2000 around in 2000 ? Weren't they what BMW and Alfa were debating ?

There were several draft proposals around this time, none of which bore anything more than a passing resemblance to the final regulations. In fact the was was debate that S2000 would even happen at all.

If TOCA had gone with one of the draft proposals they would still be in the same position now. Remember as well that this is a 2 way street. TOCA were pushing the FIA Touring Car Commission to adopt their regs, or at least a variation of them.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Super Touring could certainly have ran out another year until 2002 so that S2000 was implemented. It was after all in its death throes for the previous 3 years.

Who with? 2000 we had 11 cars - 3 each from Ford, Honda and Vauxhall plus a pair of indie Nissans. By the end of 2000 Ford and Honda had already said they would not be there regardless of the regulations. As Alfa Fan has already said, you'd be lucky to get a 5 car field.

As for the suggestion of bringing in Formula Saloons cars I'm affraid you are dreaming. There may have been some big spenders in FS but they were still a world away from what would be needed for a proper BTCC entry. You could spend a bit of money and run at the front of Formula Saloons or three times the amount and be made to look a fool by a works Vauxhall team spending 10 times what you could afford. Those that were in FS or still run SuperTourers will tell you that the engines are deliberately down-tuned as they can't afford the stress the cars as much as a works BTCC team, who treat the cars as disposable.

[Hazard]

I see this argument going round in circles somewhat, although it's interesting debate it's starting to get a bit repetitive.

Davyboy, if you're not convinced of the arguments presented against your points...you're welcome to retain your own opinion - but lets not damage this thread with repeating discussion over why the BTCC should have done things differently in the past 6 years...and just look ahead to what it's doing now - as is the purpose of this thread.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hazard

I see this argument going round in circles somewhat, although it's interesting debate it's starting to get a bit repetitive.

Davyboy, if you're not convinced of the arguments presented against your points...you're welcome to retain your own opinion - but lets not damage this thread with repeating discussion over why the BTCC should have done things differently in the past 6 years...and just look ahead to what it's doing now - as is the purpose of this thread.

You beat me to it. I was just about to say that my one point about bringing the 2007 situation forward to 2006 has gotten out of control here. I agree, let's draw a line under the past [and my opinions of it] and move forward.

[kmchow]

Everyone knows I'm also a big ST fan, so I wanted to add my final thoughts. As well, let's make sure we'll always stay away form personal attacks!

Continuing with ST after 2000 would not be impossible, but it would definitely have been even harder as the BTCC would be having to rely more and more on Indepedents.
Would the independents be drawn from the existing pool or perhaps even FS? Possibly, if the incentives were high and entry fees low.

But as we're all well aware, it's not easy being an indepedent b/c you constantly struggle with finances which could lead to driver changes throughout the season and/or even withdrawals from certain races.

Now as an organizer, the latter situation is not ideal for running a championship. As a result, it's understandeable TOCA would probably decide if they're going to struggle, they're going to struggle with a new set of rules then?

As Redshoes pointed out, there were several formats from S2000 to SP to BTC style rules being debated during this entire time. I think TOCA took the initiative and tried to get BTC to become the standard again. After all, they invented (ST/Class 2)! Was TOCA a bit arrogant or overconfident b/c of their past success? Perhaps? But since they're pushing those rules, they've gotta use them.

I don't think anyone can envy being in TOCA position these past 6-8 years. The decisions haven't been easy?

It's been an uphill battle to return S2000 to the ST glory days. With BMW cutting their support and Alfa withdrawing all together in '06, I think S2000 is still pretty weak right now unless more manufacturers step up.

[sharpy]

Has anyone heard anything about what Seat Sport UK have planned to do for 2006??

I thought that they were supposed to announce theit plans at the end of last week.

[Simon_1983]

Going by this

http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view...=10&nid=121558

It would seem they are conituing next year

[BootsOntheSide]

That's good news at least. Really the BTCC needs 20 cars to restore its status as the best UK championship going.