Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan - Page 5

Knowlesy · 5 Jul 2007, 16:34 (Ref:1955351)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulc

Is it possible that we could see Stepney & Coughlan join forces somewhere else?

At this rate they'll be teaming up to sew mailbags...

andy_b · 5 Jul 2007, 17:38 (Ref:1955426)

Ron speaks.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60510

Inigo Montoya · 5 Jul 2007, 17:52 (Ref:1955436)

I trust the man. I have to assume these actions, if true, were the result of shenanigans of the two individuals alone. But its a very serious matter, and I hope it doesn't drag the whole company down with it.

Red · 5 Jul 2007, 18:08 (Ref:1955448)

I trust the man too. Heck, I like the man and I believe I'm the one of the few who actually likes Ron.

But I don't buy this. If Mike has indeed commited espionage it wasn't for his own curiosity.

**touringlegend** · 5 Jul 2007, 18:10 (Ref:1955450)

I agree, Ron's words do seem very truthful and straight from the heart.

I think as Barberouge was alluding to, perhaps Prodrive has been talking to them, but only an idiot would go about getting out of their contracts this way. Surely there are easier ways, like insulting the bosses wife !

Knowlesy · 5 Jul 2007, 18:10 (Ref:1955451)

I like Ron a hell of a lot, he is very misunderstood.

It would sadden me greatly if McLaren, as a company, were tarnished by the actions of a minority.

Inigo Montoya · 5 Jul 2007, 18:10 (Ref:1955452)

They (some in the Italian media) are hypothesizing the motive might have been to make himself look good within the company. Its easy to look smart when you know what your rivals are doing.

chillibowl · 5 Jul 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1955469)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

They (some in the Italian media) are hypothesizing the motive might have been to make himself look good within the company. Its easy to look smart when you know what your rivals are doing.

i would agree that doing it for his on personal gain is the most likely reason.

but taking it one step further, did he recieve a raise or additional responsibilities because of his use of "info" he should not have had in the first place? when does that become a responsibility of the company which employs him?

another question, if someone had ordered him to do it, then would Mclaren be silly enough to keep him in such a high profile postion, rather is the info more valuable than the employee who stole it?

the more i read about this the less likely it seems that Mclaren had more to gain through espionage than it stood to loose from getting caught. i for one am willling to believe Ron.

TWRv12 · 5 Jul 2007, 18:41 (Ref:1955477)

Bet Ron is more shocked that Todt.

Doods has a theory about how it all came out:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19357.html

Ron is also scheduled for the 4pm press conference tommorrow.

esper · 5 Jul 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1955489)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Funnily enough I was thinking Arrows A1 and Shadow DN11 (?).

sure there are simmilarities. To be very honnest. I rate Ron Dennis as one of the top businessman in Europe (real admiration) and Jacky Oliver as so, for the seventies. Allthough Jacky sees more the funny sides of live (but i don't know Ron I have to admit!!!) Conclussion: Paparazi where as terrible in the past as they are today. Lets forget it and go on racing

**touringlegend** · 5 Jul 2007, 19:30 (Ref:1955514)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Bet Ron is more shocked that Todt.

Doods has a theory about how it all came out:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19357.html

Ron is also scheduled for the 4pm press conference tommorrow.

That is an interesting article, as if the rumour is true about the private photocopier, it would suggest whoever done it was trying to do it behind their employers back.

Knowlesy · 5 Jul 2007, 19:38 (Ref:1955523)

Well they weren't going to inform their employer were they?

**touringlegend** · 5 Jul 2007, 19:40 (Ref:1955525)

Yes but it might dismiss some peoples thoughts that Coughlan wasn't the only McLaren employee involved.

Knowlesy · 5 Jul 2007, 19:41 (Ref:1955526)

Very true.

TWRv12 · 5 Jul 2007, 20:40 (Ref:1955570)

How many copies, sir?

Could retire on the royalites from that book.

Roddas123 · 5 Jul 2007, 22:10 (Ref:1955641)

I'm sorry, but if you were in possession of that kind of data / information - you would hardly nip dowbn to your local Prontaprint for copies......

What I'm finding hard to understand is if - as we might be lead to believe - the documents were disclosed by Nigel Stepney, what would he stand to gain?

R59 · 5 Jul 2007, 23:01 (Ref:1955665)

Here's me being devil advocate....

We're thinking vertically, and should be thinking horizontally.

Stepney, on a covert mission to McLaren, where his old mate Coggers works, is there with copies of the F2007's drawings, mulling over "why doesn't this bloody car work Mike?", and Mike says... well, if you do this, that, the other, it'll be competitive again.

Nigel hops back on the Pinapple Airlines flight and goes back to "holiday" after filling in the boys a Maranello, who duly fix the woes with the red car, and it's back on the pace.

Someone "official" finds out that Mike's had sight of the designs, and to cover it up and make it look like Ferrari have "lost" in the deal, they blame Nigel for sabotaging their car, when in fact, yet again, he was the saviour of the red cars, bringing them back to the front through a spot of back door diplomacy.

Had it all gone quitely, and RB/RB gone to Honda, MC would leave Woking and move to Maranello......... etc.. etc....

Why not? Just as far fetched as white powder in the fuel tank!

Rob.

JohnSSC · 5 Jul 2007, 23:21 (Ref:1955677)

Uh, actually that (Prontoprint or whatever) is exactly where one might go to reproduce copies. I mean think about it: is disgruntled employee X going to stand at a company photocopier making copies of the latest from competitor Y?

Conversation at the photocopier:

Q: What are you doing, Fred?
A: Oh, nothing, just making multiple copies of a gazillion pages of highly technical drawings, specification pages, engineering notes along with the notes from meetings regarding product deployment tactics.
Q: Oh. Mind if I nip in there just to make one copy?

The LAST place someone would be copying a stolen file would be at their employer's place of business...

Gt_R · 6 Jul 2007, 00:55 (Ref:1955711)

Well, at least it's not done using Ferrari's office photocopier.

But in any case, i feel that now Mclaren is really caught by this mess. The name of the team is now smogged because some member of their staff decide to achieve rival data through illegal means, and hence throwing their whole season into suspicions.

Nigel won't just volunteer the information for no apparent reasons, and so it's either revenge, bribed with money returns or an offer to join Mclaren (at Mike's recommendations) if the data was passed.

Mike would look smart won't he? Finding the solutions to how to exploit the Bridgestones maybe, aerodynamic ideas, the tentative strategies and ... the whole list of unfair benefits is almost limitless.

I just wonder how much of the information did actually filter into the team and the car, and if there are indeed others involved.

Teretonga · 6 Jul 2007, 02:00 (Ref:1955722)

This whole scenario is troubling to me.
If Stepney did do as is suggested and gave information to Mike C., then what is the motive?
If McLaren gained little or nothing from it, then what is the value of it?
Stepney says he is innocent and can prove it.

So what is really going on....
Is it a smokescreen for something else that is going on behind the scenes and and Ferrari is distracting everyone from what is really happening?
Nigel has a collection of information from his time at Ferrari. Nothing is actually wrong. The information is not secret and has has no commercial or competitive value to McLaren or anyone else.

Nigel passes it to Mike. Or does he?
Does someone else pass information of little value to Mike.
Mike takes it home to puruse it to see what it contains.
Nigel goes to the Philipines for a holiday...or is he on 'gardening' leave because he has indicated he is leaving Maranello.... (for McLaren or Honda?)
Ferrari is piqued at his departure and decide to create an incident to discredit him and because they are concerned thathe will take real secrets with him.
The information found in Italy is a plant....

Nigels reputation is tainted.
A court order is against his employment with another team for a defined period or he is detained in italy on criminal charges...
Mike's reputation is tainted as is McLarens, a masterstroke against one of their competitors that will not be easily forgotten regardless of the truth.

Dirty tricks?
Yes.
But no less fanciful than the white powder sabotage story which everyone now seems to have forgotten or discounted...
So was it real or not?...

Oldtony · 6 Jul 2007, 02:13 (Ref:1955725)

FIA in their release say:
"The remit of this investigation will focus solely on the requirements of the International Sporting Code and the Formula One regulations".
Can anyone point out to me the section in either of those documents dealing with industrial espionage? If there isn't such an item, what are FIA investigating?

Gt_R · 6 Jul 2007, 03:57 (Ref:1955738)

Teretonga, i think your list of thoughts are quite flawed.

If it's just a simple case of dirty tricks against Nigel/Mclaren as you suggest, do you think 1) FIA would probe, 2) Mclaren would actually suspend one of their key personnels 3) issue statements that distant themselves from Mike.

Nigel has been with Ferrari for quite some time, and having possession of some information may be natural. However, what makes you say it is irrelevant or "not secret"? What has been suggested that is found from Mike's place, and supposedly passed on by Nigel, is not what we read from F1.com's technical update pages, and not what information which even a personnel of Nigel's position should have in his private possession, let alone a "senior employee" of a rival team.

Nigel can "indicate" he is leaving, but that doesn't mean he can leave if he has a contract to fulfil, and doesn't mean that he can bring information along with him.

If Mclaren's reputation is tainted, it is not the fault of Ferrari. For it is one of the black sheeps in Team Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes that decide to take a wrong path, and unfortunately Mclaren had to pay the price.

You suggest that Ferrari is afraid Nigel bring real secrets, but there has been many senior and talented people who has left Ferrari to work at Mclaren and Williams, people who had access to the same "real secrets", if not more. So why didn't Ferrari do the same to them all?

That Mclaren and Ron Dennis has come out trying to distant themselves, clear the name, and suspend the employee, and cooperate with investigations showed that something wrong has happened between one of their own and Nigel. If it's just a trick to ruin Mclaren, Ron would simply be on the media saying "that's rubbish, what Ferrari say has no substance". That did not happen.

Counter to what many try to create into a conspiracy, i think both Ferrari and Mclaren are clear and working to solve this issue. Ferrari had so far avoided dragging Mclaren as an involved party, but rather direct the case at the individual they believe is responsible, who just unfortunately happen to be an employee at Mclaren.

Gt_R · 6 Jul 2007, 04:08 (Ref:1955741)

Quote "what are FIA investigating?"

Don't blame me for being cynical, but FIA is just to show that there is investigation done, to create a perceived credibility to this year's championship, which is now at the risk of being damaged.

I'm not saying that Mclaren is guilty of anything, but there is almost no way FIA could find much that are sufficient to pin down Mclaren even IF they did use the data.

A good case would be, as i mentioned some time back, the case of Toyota. Toyota top brass sack the employees involved, and claim they didn't know anything.... and even though the Toyota looks like a repainted Ferrari, FIA could do NOTHING about it.

And the case of customer cars are just further evidence that even if the source of data are the same, its not difficult for teams to claim that they are unique and unrelated.

The cars will be checked over, but unless FIA find red paint beneath the peeling Mclaren livery or a repainted Ferrari front wing attached on a Mclaren, there's nothing.

But for Mclaren, it will be good because it will go some way to repair the ruined image in the eyes of the casual fans. And it will be good, because the name "Mclaren" is really too valued a name that it'd be sad if it's tarnished because of one bad employee.

Hope everything goes by soon, and that it's nothing more than just a case of mischief.

**Peter Mallett** · 6 Jul 2007, 04:24 (Ref:1955746)

Forgive me but I really can't see that McLaren's name has been tarnished. It is a business and they've taken the action they deem necessary so far. If any further action is required I'm sure they'll do likewise.

Ditto Ferrari.

Gt_R · 6 Jul 2007, 04:41 (Ref:1955749)

Maybe "ruined image" sounds exaggerating, but unfortunately, some portion of people are trying to discredit Mclaren's successes due to this turn of event.

It's just that there'd be a "if" hovering around Mclaren now, and i believe Ron that he isn't aware.

It will be ridiculous to say that Mclaren's success is because of the technical package from Ferrari. It's just that it's much possible that in some ways it has perhaps benefitted the team without the knowledge or approval of Ron Dennis.

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