[Rules] All FOTA Teams submit entries for 2010

[P38 in workshop]

I have no doubt that a series without Ferrari is possible.As is a series without any of the other FOTA members who have submitted entries on a conditional basis.Such a series would still attract an audience of enthusiasts,both on television and in the grandstands.Where it might struggle is to attract regular audiences to the broadcasts,which would definitely have an effect on the companies willing to sponsor teams.The idea of Italian sympathies switching to Toro Rosso is a bit far fetched and the global army of red clad flag waving Ferrari fans might discover other hobbies.The new entrants may be hopeful of raising the funding to compete and while I welcome the possibility of an influx of new teams,the sceptic in me doubts that more than three are likely to be present at the first race next year even if the FOTA teams are not allowed to enter.I would like to see the FIA produce a rational rebuttal of the FOTA desire for rule stability rather than Max issuing statements about who makes the rules.To pretend that a championship without the FOTA teams would be the pinnacle of motorsport is unrealistic.Sportscar racing could be well placed to pick up the mantle,especially if the ACO are running things.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by jab

I seem to remember it being mentioned that either Max or Bernie's vision for F1 is France-esque (as in the France family, obviously).

And you know what? That is perfectly fine. But I better never see another fan that thinks all the teams leaving and the FIA controls everything with no recourse outside of just for show as a good thing ever complain about either NASCAR or the IRL ever again, because I'm calling them out on blatant hypocrisy.

Oh and it's filled with largely private teams with no famous names with a great long-term history apart from Petty (which is a re-incarnation itself) and Penske (which is more known for other stuff). Even Hendrick's only been around since 1984 and Roush since 1988

Note that the modern NASCAR pretty much started in the early 1990s. Just as Juan Manuel Fangio or Jochen Rindt or Stirling Moss has no relevance to the Formula One or the FIA of today, neither does Fireball Roberts or Curtis Turner or Red Byron to NASCAR. The reason that the powerhouse teams started in the 1980s was that the first time anyone ever had a multi-car team was Hendrick in the late '80s. And that dramatically changed the sport. Hendrick, Roush, and Gibbs are the great teams today, and in 20 years probably still will be if still there, they've become established. So your "no famous names" point does not really hold water for those reasons.

If the best teams though ever decided to leave NASCAR and form their own series, NASCAR would shrivel. Why? Because fans go to the track for the driver. And the popular drivers all drive for the big teams. So if this argument ever happened in NASCAR, the breakaway would win far and away. Let's just remove one current team as an example: how many people you think are going to show up for the 2010 Daytona 500 if there were no Dale Earnhardt Jr., no Jeff Gordon, no Jimmie Johnson, and no Tony Stewart? (since Stewart's team is effectively a Hendrick satellite)

[jab]

I wasn't exactly saying they should do that overnight. All I was saying is it's a good model to base on, and it proves you don't need teams that are 50+ years old just to survive

Ferrari seem to think they're wonderful because they've been in F1 for 60-odd years, but look across the Atlantic and hardly anyone batted an eyelid when Petty Enterprises went under this year

F1 doesn't need historic teams to succeed. It doesn't need big name manufacturer teams to succeed. F1 would probably be just as successful today if the 10 teams were Williams, USF1, Campos, Litespeed, Lola, Prodrive, Superfund, Epsilon Euskadi, N.Technology and RML - not that this is an excuse to dump the current teams but they are only in a position of power because they're in F1 right now. F1 was built, as a global enterprise, on privateers like Williams, McLaren, Tyrrell and Brabham

I'm not advocating Mosley driving manufacturers out of F1 overnight, but that's not what he wants regardless

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by jab

Ferrari seem to think they're wonderful because they've been in F1 for 60-odd years, but look across the Atlantic and hardly anyone batted an eyelid when Petty Enterprises went under this year.

That is a complete misrepresentation of the situation on your part. Petty Enterprises had not won a national title since Richard won his 7th in 1979 and they had steadily declined into nothing which was hastened along by Richard's grandson and the future of the team Adam Petty dying at Loudon in 2000. Not to mention that NASCAR's fanbase from 1979 to 2009 has at least quintupled, leaving only a small minority of the current NASCAR fanbase that had ever seen Petty Enterprises as a credible season-long threat. I've been watching NASCAR since 1988 and Petty Enterprises in those 22 years won a grand total of 3 races, the last of which was with John Andretti 10 years ago.

Ferrari on the other hand have won 6 world driver titles since 1979 and have been easily the most successful team of the past decade. Not to mention, in the most important marker, Ferrari has by far more fans than anyone else. Who else in the sport has more fans worldwide? That's what makes them "wonderful".

So your analogy is completely wrong by comparing a dying team that hadn't been successful in a long time to the main draw. Ferrari in NASCAR terms would be a lesser version Dale Earnhardt Sr. in regards to the size of their fanbase in relation to everyone else in the sport and their previous success (except there's no such thing as a Ferrari Jr. for the Ferrari Sr. team fans to cheer for if Sr. leaves). Petty in Formula One terms would be analogous to Lotus before they died.

F1 doesn't need historic teams to succeed. It doesn't need big name manufacturer teams to succeed.

No it doesn't. But you, like most others, have mistaken Bernie looking out for his checkbook with Bernie looking out for the health of the sport. I have an idea to make F1 succeed, no Bernie gobbling up all the money. Let's remove the middleman. If you're going to make the argument that Ferrari's past exploits are irrelevant in the current situation, than shouldn't you also argue that Bernie getting the sport to where it is now is likewise irrelevant in concerns to its future direction?

F1 would probably be just as successful today if the 10 teams were Williams, USF1, Campos, Litespeed, Lola, Prodrive, Superfund, Epsilon Euskadi, N.Technology and RML

This is a common flaw amongst British racing fans in completely focusing on the teams and ignoring everything else. If you take the current driving lineup and put it in those 10 teams, you are going to lose some people that are team fans, for example the people that cheer for Ferrari, McLaren, the notoriously domestic Japanese cheering for Toyota, but it'd probably not to be too bad.

If you take a somewhat inferior lineup though, for example Kimi Raikkonen retires and his spot in the grid goes to Giorgio Pantano amongst other drivers not willing to take an almost certain to be drastic pay cut, than the fans of those drivers are going to leave as well.

F1 was built, as a global enterprise, on privateers like Williams, McLaren, Tyrrell and Brabham

Privateers have been banned in F1 since I think the 1970s. I have long argued that de jure privateers should be allowed back on the grids.

I'm not advocating Mosley driving manufacturers out of F1 overnight, but that's not what he wants regardless

Mosley and Ecclestone want complete and total control. That in my opinion is what all this is about. They can only have that by driving out the manufacturers. I've yet to hear anything anywhere that does not fall in line with that point of view. It's not about budget systems or anything of that nature, the two-tiered budget system was merely the lynchpin in the grenade to drive the manufacturers out of the sport because Mosley and Ecclestone when deriving the future rules structure intentionally settled on a method that they knew going in would be unacceptable to the majority of their competitors. Who is easier to control and tell what to do for a dictator, a Litespeed or a USF1 that would die tomorrow without an F1 entry, or Ferrari? And, the main point, which would be happier with receiving less money for travelling to China and Abu Dhabi for a race?

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by jab

I'm not advocating Mosley driving manufacturers out of F1 overnight, but that's not what he wants regardless

My emphasis.
There are many out here who think that is what Max does want Jab.

The comparison with NASCAR is largely irrelevant. NASCAR, like our V8SC, is a domestic series, aimed squarely at local markets featuring easily identifiable locally available makes. Chev, Ford and Dodge are US makes, like Falcon and Holden are Australian. They do not translate to a Global mass audience. Race fans maybe, but mass audiences, no.
Bernie has brought aboard some of the world's most identifiable automotive brand names who sell cars in a global market. This is the prime reason for the growth in audiences in the developing world, and the fact that F1 has an audience in virtually every country. Loose those brand names and what does F1 have left to market?
If Max succeeds in shrinking F1 back to a group of no-name teams he will succeed in de-globalising the Fomula. As I have said previously if he succeeds in that he also succeeds in getting fid of FOM/CVC as well as FOTA.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Lose those brand names and what does F1 have left to market?

Drivers.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Ferrari on the other hand have won 6 world driver titles since 1979 and have been easily the most successful team of the past decade.

They were certainly successful when it came to aquiring a regulations veto in 98.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Not to mention, in the most important marker, Ferrari has by far more fans than anyone else. Who else in the sport has more fans worldwide? That's what makes them "wonderful".

Manchester United has probably more soccer fans (or should that be 'glory hunters') than any team in the world,but I would bet that most of them haven't got a clue where Manchester is,never mind Old Trafford!

However,just north of Manchester,a little known team called 'Burnley F.C.' recently won promotion to the football premiere league after many a long year in the lower divisions.And despite being the founders of the football league back in 1888 they have never received a penny more than their performances deserved and never was is it ever suggested that because of their status as founding members of the football league that they should be treated any differently from any other club.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Drivers.

OK let's call the new spec series F2 "Formula One" an run the WDC on that basis.
Save a lot of money and hassle.
Motor racing would loose a very large proportion of it's global audience, but it might keep those who think that "celebrity" is the ultimate goal happy.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Manchester United has probably more soccer fans (or should that be 'glory hunters') than any team in the world,but I would bet that most of them haven't got a clue where Manchester is,never mind Old Trafford!

So what are you driving at, that Ferrari's fans worldwide are dumb morons and their opinion on how the sport should look like does not matter because they don't share your viewpoint?

However,just north of Manchester,a little known team called 'Burnley F.C.' recently won promotion to the football premiere league after many a long year in the lower divisions.And despite being the founders of the football league back in 1888 they have never received a penny more than their performances deserved and never was is it ever suggested that because of their status as founding members of the football league that they should be treated any differently from any other club.

(this ties nicely into this argument)

And yet if the likes of Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool ever decided to leave the Premiership and go off to help form a European Super League for example, the financial structure of the English Premier League upon which its based, global television rights for all those "clueless fans that couldn't find Manchester on a map", would die, leading to financial ruin for the remaining teams and clubs unless they're going to become semi-pro as they would not be able to pay the player bills, especially with the upcoming fiscal tsunami that Britain will face and its disastrous effect it will have on the general English population, what with having 100% GDP deficits within four years. http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/0...s-fiscal-pain/

Learn gratefulness padawan.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

They were certainly successful when it came to aquiring a regulations veto in 98.




Manchester United has probably more soccer fans (or should that be 'glory hunters') than any team in the world,but I would bet that most of them haven't got a clue where Manchester is,never mind Old Trafford!

However,just north of Manchester,a little known team called 'Burnley F.C.' recently won promotion to the football premiere league after many a long year in the lower divisions.And despite being the founders of the football league back in 1888 they have never received a penny more than their performances deserved and never was is it ever suggested that because of their status as founding members of the football league that they should be treated any differently from any other club.

Never mind Ryan, you can't beat the english reasoning. The ball will always bounce back to you.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

So what are you driving at, that Ferrari's fans worldwide are dumb morons and their opinion on how the sport should look like does not matter because they don't share your viewpoint?

Not dumb morons... the definition is "not civilized".

(this ties nicely into this argument)

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

And yet if the likes of Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool ever decided to leave the Premiership and go off to help form a European Super League for example, the financial structure of the English Premier League upon which its based, global television rights for all those "clueless fans that couldn't find Manchester on a map", would die, leading to financial ruin for the remaining teams and clubs unless they're going to become semi-pro as they would not be able to pay the player bills, especially with the upcoming fiscal tsunami that Britain will face and its disastrous effect it will have on the general English population, what with having 100% GDP deficits within four years.

Learn gratefulness padawan.

Now that's a homerun !

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

So what are you driving at, that Ferrari's fans worldwide are dumb morons and their opinion on how the sport should look like does not matter because they don't share your viewpoint?

No one said that Manchester United fans were 'dumb morons',but they would at least realise that the football league would carry on if they were ever to leave.

Which ties nicely into.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

And yet if the likes of Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool ever decided to leave the Premiership and go off to help form a European Super League for example, the financial structure of the English Premier League upon which its based, global television rights for all those "clueless fans that couldn't find Manchester on a map", would die, leading to financial ruin for the remaining teams and clubs unless they're going to become semi-pro as they would not be able to pay the player bills, especially with the upcoming fiscal tsunami that Britain will face and its disastrous effect it will have on the general English population, what with having 100% GDP deficits within four years.

Maybe all four teams will get relegated next season or maybe they'll go off and form a Euro-league! I really wonder if all that money would follow them,and even if it did,would anyone really care.

You seem to under-estimate the importance of the actual football league,which is indeed far more important than any one team,or any four for that matter.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Learn gratefulness padawan.

Something maybe Ferrari should learn too.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

OK let's call the new spec series F2 "Formula One" an run the WDC on that basis.
Save a lot of money and hassle.
Motor racing would loose a very large proportion of it's global audience, but it might keep those who think that "celebrity" is the ultimate goal happy.

You asked a question. I gave an answer.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Maybe all four teams will get relegated next season or maybe they'll go off and form a Euro-league! I really wonder if all that money would follow them,and even if it did,would anyone really care.

I'm certain the owner of Burnley would!

You seem to under-estimate the importance of the actual football league,which is indeed far more important than any one team,or any four for that matter.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You think your country would tune in with just as large numbers to watch a World Cup Final between St. Kitts & Nevis and Burkina Faso as it would England and Germany. I don't. You think the 10 non-manufacturer teams in an F1 lineup would draw just as many fans as the 10 current teams. I don't.

Fans in sports have longstanding rooting interests and to expect them to just throw those away on a whim when their longtime reason for watching disappears and continue on being a fan of said sport is quite the stretch.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

You think your country would tune in with just as large numbers to watch a World Cup Final between St. Kitts & Nevis and Burkina Faso as it would England and Germany. I don't.

One day we may see that because they have the better teams.We can't think that the usual suspects will always have it their own way.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

One day we may see that because they have the better teams.We can't think that the usual suspects will always have it their own way.

That's not the question, you ran away from it because you know he's right. That's a shame.

[Oldtony]

I think the Premier League thing is a bit like the NASCAR thing. Hugely popular on their home screens, but followed as a sort of celebrity thing elsewhere. The global audiece follows the teams with global image making the TV rights marketable internationaly. Thus The Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal thing has a parallel.
On the same theme when David Beckham left the Premier League (or Charlton, or Best etc) or any combination of star players it was just like Scumacher, or Mansell or Senna leaving F1. A major problem until the next match/race, but then the individual player/driver fan returned to the tribal loyalty that the team inspired.
Loosing Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Renault and Red Bull, with Honda already relegated, would be something like loosing Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc with Newcastle already relegated.
On that basis what price the Premier League TV rights outside the UK for next season?
By the way Flyin, I acknowledge what you say about drivers, but using this parallel what would be the drawing power of Rooney playing for Brighton and Hove Albion or Scunthorpe United?

[phoenix]

Does anyone here think the directors of Manchester United should write the rules for football? How about a poll...

[phoenix]

Well, whatever next: http://www.football-industry.com/200...control-panel/

Maybe a breakaway is on the cards in footie too...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Fans in sports have longstanding rooting interests and to expect them to just throw those away on a whim when their longtime reason for watching disappears and continue on being a fan of said sport is quite the stretch.

Other teams have fans,and other teams come and go.It's probably best not to get too attached.

Their "longtime reason" for watching F1 should be because it is F1,remember that you can also go and watch Ferrari compete in 'slot car' racing,and maybe Ferrari should recognise that without them there could still be F1,but without the 'FIA Formula One World Championship' there could not.

So maybe if the fans and the team had a little more respect for 'their' sport rather than what's always in the best interests of 'their' team,we wouldn't be getting into these situations would we.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

That's not the question, you ran away from it because you know he's right. That's a shame.

Is he right,I mean really! ?

If it is right that one team holds all the cards,then I'll be glad to be wrong.

[davyboy]

Max has told them to go off and set up their own series here.

I hope the rebels either leave or do as he says. I would love to see a fresh new order along with real racing teams like Williams and great names like Brabham, March et al back again. Bring it on !

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Is he right,I mean really! ?

If it is right that one team holds all the cards,then I'll be glad to be wrong.

Martyn, there's your point of view, and your attitude to charge Ferrari as the main issue in everything. If it was only for this time, then I would have no problem with that, but it's constant and annoying in almost every single post of yours, even when things are not directly related to Ferrari. It's your opinion, and I respected that, but it always falls into the same old speech. Unfortunately your own view seems to be restricted to what you believe to be a worldwide view about F1. It might be alright in your country and the ones around you. But it's much bigger than that and is is more varied than you're are assuming to be. I know you think you know, that's obvious, but there are people here that are not british, or english, that have a different view from you, and though you might claim that you are being unbiased or above any cultural differences, your posts testify that this is not the case.
You might be right and you might be wrong, what's worth is try to understand a different point of view. I'm sorry to say, but you are unable to do it.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Max has told them to go off and set up their own series here.

I hope the rebels either leave or do as he says. I would love to see a fresh new order along with real racing teams like Williams and great names like Brabham, March et al back again. Bring it on !

If all big manufactures will leave, Formula 1 will be left behind without engines. Only Williams and Force India may stay in the sport and the new amateurs will come in. What a great perspective!

[jab]

Cosworth are supplying the new teams and will probably end up supplying everyone (and there's nothing new there)

And people watch F1 because it's F1. Everything else (teams, drivers etc) comes from them being in F1