[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[TCT]

Am I the only one who thinks this was rather boring?


Toyota was miles ahead.
Ferrari and Corvette were left to play amongst themselves for the final place on the podium.
Porsche was never even close to that.
Peugeot was very slow and very unreliable.
Vanwall was slow and unreliable, maybe but better than expected
and Glickenhaus was as bad and slow as expected probably.


But the order was clear before 1 hour was done and never really in question anymore.




That is not a Balanced Performance between the cars. Unless they changed what BOP stands for.




Same for GT where Corvette just ran away with it and nobody could do anything about it.
Unless that was the desired result as well then clearly BOP is not working there either.









I am disappointed. They could have flagged after 3 hours and it would not have made a difference.

[Toyotats03OUS]

Originally Posted by TCT

Am I the only one who thinks this was rather boring?


Toyota was miles ahead.
Ferrari and Corvette were left to play amongst themselves for the final place on the podium.
Porsche was never even close to that.
Peugeot was very slow and very unreliable.
Vanwall was slow and unreliable, maybe but better than expected
and Glickenhaus was as bad and slow as expected probably.


But the order was clear before 1 hour was done and never really in question anymore.




That is not a Balanced Performance between the cars. Unless they changed what BOP stands for.




Same for GT where Corvette just ran away with it and nobody could do anything about it.
Unless that was the desired result as well then clearly BOP is not working there either.









I am disappointed. They could have flagged after 3 hours and it would not have made a difference.

I think it is unrealistic to think that anybody is going to challenge the stablished team in such a tough track right of the bat, is not possible, but very unlikely. Ferrari and Cadillac were very fast, beating Toyota in quali in their first race, that’s very impressive. Ferrari couldn’t challenge because of their mistakes! Not the pace. I keep hearing people complaining about bop, but I never heard anyone say anything when Toyota joined and Audi was the dominant car at the beginning of the lmp1 era, matter fact people would Bragg at how amazing and unbeatable audi was! Toyota can’t get the same love hmm.

[TCT]

I doesn't really matter if Toyota wins or not. Or Audi or Porsche or Ferrari or whoever.


I want a race that is unpredictable and where everybody stands a chance.
That is what BOP should mean I think?


And that is not what we got.
We got domination instead.


Autosport.com
WEC Sebring: Toyota dominates, Ferrari scores podium on debut
Toyota scored a dominant 1-2 in the Sebring 1000 Miles, easily seeing off the challenge of Ferrari’s debut in the World Endurance Championship.

DailySportsCar.com
Toyota Gazoo Racing scored an impressive dominant 1-2 victory in the opening round of the 2023 FIA WEC season at Sebring. The Japanese-flagged team’s GR010 HYBRIDs controlled the race almost from start to finish, ...

Racer.com
Toyota dominates WEC 1000 Miles of Sebring

Sportscar365
Mike Conway, Kamui Kobayashi and Jose Maria Lopez won the 1000 Miles of Sebring as Toyota Gazoo Racing beat the Hypercar newcomers to take a dominant 1-2 finish.

[TCT]

This is a test...
It seems like I can't post a reply anymore ???




EDITED

Strange. This one works.
If I type a longer reply I get: Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting.


Why????


I will try again in smaller pieces then because this sucks.

[TCT]

I don't car who wins, actually.

As long as the race is exciting and everybody gets a chance.
That is what BOP should mean IMO.

But that is not what we got. We got domination al along.



Autosport.com
WEC Sebring: Toyota dominates, Ferrari scores podium on debut
Toyota scored a dominant 1-2 in the Sebring 1000 Miles, easily seeing off the challenge of Ferrari’s debut in the World Endurance Championship.

DailySportsCar.com
Toyota Gazoo Racing scored an impressive dominant 1-2 victory in the opening round of the 2023 FIA WEC season at Sebring. The Japanese-flagged team’s GR010 HYBRIDs controlled the race almost from start to finish, ...

Racer.com
Toyota dominates WEC 1000 Miles of Sebring

Sportscar365
Mike Conway, Kamui Kobayashi and Jose Maria Lopez won the 1000 Miles of Sebring as Toyota Gazoo Racing beat the Hypercar newcomers to take a dominant 1-2 finish.



EDITED

Seems like I am not allowed to post URLs ???
Oh well, you can probably find them yourselves if you wish.
Sucks that I can't post it and other can.

(Looks like the forum isn't BOPed either )

[Simmi]

I think most people would have predicted a Toyota 1-2 but in terms of in-race battles for the top positions it obviously fell a bit short. And the manner of victory was very comfortable for Toyota. I'm sure they had plenty in reserve and they finished two laps ahead.

With so many new teams vs a decade-long well oiled machine it's quite hard to judge. But I'm guessing we'll see a LMDh group adjustment prior to Spa. Then who knows what else...

I'm also not clear on how the Porsches, without major issues from what I could see, managed to finish two laps back on the leading Ferrari/Cadi. Their pace was in the Peugeot range in the hands of quite a few drivers so of all the teams, they were probably the most underwhelming for me vs expectations.

Peugeot are drifting into Nissan territory and I know I'm not the only one fearing they've built a dud.

All in all I think it was on a par with many WEC races. Glimpses of great moments, very watchable if you're a hardcore fan. I'm not sure it would have converted any casuals who tuned in for the first time. But I'm very optimistic for the future.

[J Jay]

URL's can be posted by using the tags, or highlighting the text in your post and using the "Insert Link" option. A lot of forums use more modern functionality, but if it isn't broken...

About the race, expecting the opening race of a new rule set to be a humdinger seems unrealistic. BoP is there to give everyone the same maximum performance, not to equalise everyone's pace on track. It's up to the teams to reach the potential set by the BoP, through reliability and driver/team performance. If you want close racing where the car is not a differentiating factor, LMP2 is where your focus should be. It's a de-facto spec class, which will always bother me, but that does mean there is always on-track excitement.

Originally Posted by Simmi

I'm also not clear on how the Porsches, without major issues from what I could see, managed to finish two laps back on the leading Ferrari/Cadi. Their pace was in the Peugeot range in the hands of quite a few drivers so of all the teams, they were probably the most underwhelming for me vs expectations.

Peugeot are drifting into Nissan territory and I know I'm not the only one fearing they've built a dud.

All in all I think it was on a par with many WEC races. Glimpses of great moments, very watchable if you're a hardcore fan. I'm not sure it would have converted any casuals who tuned in for the first time. But I'm very optimistic for the future.

Be careful there, I can hear Darren Cox sprinting towards his keyboard...

The Porsches looked particularly hard to drive getting the tyres up to temperature, but their pace was erratic. Lots of work required for a good showing at Le Mans this year.

[rika]

What does BoP mean?
I thought it was just meaned to give everybody an equal chance?

I mean if we all do a sport (you name one) and we agree on a BoP then I should have as much chance of winning as you.
No?

Without BoP I will not be able to win because I am girl and most of you are not (I think)
Unless we go rope skipping, then maybe I can get good result too.


Is that not what BoP should do? Make sure I have the same chance as you?

[TCT]

Originally Posted by J Jay

URL's can be posted by using the tags, or highlighting the text in your post and using the "Insert Link" option. A lot of forums use more modern functionality, but if it isn't broken...

I used url= tags but my post did not appear afterwards.
In the preview window when I tested it , it worked.


I tested it because I know it is different from forum to forum.
So I think I did it right, but looks like it doesn't work for me.

[Adam43]

URLs. If you’re a new user it is limited until you have a few posts. We had such a problem with spammers this was a necessary step. Don’t worry you’ll be able to post them soon enough.

[TCT]

Just a tip. Maybe the error should give a clue why my post wouldn't appear.


Now I had no idea and I had to find out on my own why it didn't work.
I figured out URL's was the problem but the error or warning could have been more clear.



All I got was this

Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting.

but no indication why that was suddenly happening.

[Adam43]

I thought the BoP was pretty well done. Everyone was close, speed wise. What we saw was those experienced (team and drivers) knew how to make their car more consistent and how to run a race.

How do you BoP experience (or even should you)?

Bodes extremely well for when the others get established in the series. Well done rule makers.

Seems like this series will continue to reward being good at running a race. Perfect.

What bop will never do is compensate for pitting at a stupid time, messing up a re-start, mange tyre wear in a stint, running into others, etc…

and it won’t be able to make the team I want win every time either.

[TCT]

IMO The BoP was certainly not perfect. Far from it, I think.


Toyota were so far ahead of everyone.
Even those with no problem were more than 2 laps behind.


All Toyota drivers had fastest laps that were faster than all Porsche drivers.


The fastest lap of #6 was 1.5 seconds slower than that of the Toyota #8.
That of #5 1.7 seconds
Peugeot #94 2.2 seconds
Peugeot #93 2.6 seconds




On none of his 103 laps Estre could get within 1.8 seconds of the fastest lap of #8.

On none of his 103 laps Estre could get within 0.5 seconds of the fasest lap of the slowest driver in #8.







Perfect? I think not!

[Adam43]

Not sure anyone has said the BoP is perfect. It isn’t going to ever be perfect. But it is realistically not going to be better than that.

I think that the approach that we reward a team for all those good things like consistency, experience and no mistakes is perfect way to do it.

As for Peugeot. Well that’d be amazing to compensate for that car. It was just awful on the bumps at Sebring. As we talked in the race. Peugeot have a car that is difficult

Under this “potential” based approach if you’ve got a shitbox that bounces around in corners and needs a super perfect track to reach its potential then you are going to struggle. That’s fine by me. And why Sebring needs to stay on the calendar.

[TCT]

If you were not a Toyota and did everything perfect, the best you could hope for was still only 3rd.
Not good IMO.

[PhilipR]

The race shows the advantage of having a 2 year old car - managed to sort it out to the point they are eliminating the small issues. Let's not forget all the issues the Toyotas had in 21 and 22

It would be unrealistic to expect new teams with new cars to challenged Toyota on a very difficult track as well

Let's see how this settles before we call the BOP wrong

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

The race shows the advantage of having a 2 year old car - managed to sort it out to the point they are eliminating the small issues. Let's not forget all the issues the Toyotas had in 21 and 22

It would be unrealistic to expect new teams with new cars to challenged Toyota on a very difficult track as well

Let's see how this settles before we call the BOP wrong

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

The race shows the advantage of having a 2 year old car - managed to sort it out to the point they are eliminating the small issues. Let's not forget all the issues the Toyotas had in 21 and 22

It would be unrealistic to expect new teams with new cars to challenged Toyota on a very difficult track as well

Let's see how this settles before we call the BOP wrong

I agree, too early for conclusions.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

The race shows the advantage of having a 2 year old car - managed to sort it out to the point they are eliminating the small issues. Let's not forget all the issues the Toyotas had in 21 and 22

It would be unrealistic to expect new teams with new cars to challenged Toyota on a very difficult track as well

Let's see how this settles before we call the BOP wrong

Seems fair.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by TCT

If you were not a Toyota and did everything perfect, the best you could hope for was still only 3rd.
Not good IMO.

This is the first time I have heard a request for more BoP. Strange days.

The three main tools the series can use to control performance are minimum weight, maximum power and maximum energy use per stint. In addition, the non-hybrid LMH cars (Glickenhaus and Vanwall) were set a minimum refuelling docking time with the LMDh cars (Caddy and Porsche) having to dock for an additional 1 second and the hybrid LMH cars an additional 1.2 seconds.

Here are the power, weight and energy limits for Sebring.

Glickenhaus 520kW, 1030kg, 505kW per tonne
Vanwall 511kW, 1030kg, 496kW/t (-1.78%)
Cadillac 513kW, 1038kg, 494kW/t (-2.18%)
Peugeot 518kW, 1049kg, 494kW/t (-2.18%)
Porsche 517kW, 1048kg, 493kW/t (-2.38%)
Ferrari 515kW, 1057kg, 487kW/t (-3.56%)
Toyota 517kW, 1062kg, 487kW/t (-3.56%)

Toyota 913Mj
Porsche 912Mj (-0.11%)
Glickenhaus. 911Mj (-0.22%)
Peugeot 909Mj (-0.44%)
Ferrari 908Mj (-0.55%)
Cadillac 905Mj (-0.88%)
Vanwall 900Mj (-1.42%)

So the cars with the joint worst power to weight ratios started on pole or won the race. There is no BoP for suspension design, spring/damper rates, wing angles, strategic planning, tactical reactions or operational efficiency. Thank god.

I am happy Toyota finished 1-2. The result shows the value of experience. The team has been operating continually at this level for 10 years, this is their third year with this car, their world class driver roster (all LMP1 or Hypercar world champions and outright Le Mans winners) is stable and highly motivated. Frankly, it would have been a huge failure if they hadn't won it.

The best team won. The others need to improve.

[TCT]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is the first time I have heard a request for more BoP. Strange days.

There's a first for everything. I guess?


I am not asking for more BoP.
Just better BoP.


Like someone said, a perfect BoP means everybody has an equal chance at winning.


If you don't have mechanical issues or driver errors you will be very close to

winning.


That's the meaning of BoP for me.
But it doesn't seem to work that way.

[Mike E]

The other cars are just too new. Toyota won't win every race

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TCT

If you don't have mechanical issues or driver errors…

And if you can have a good strategy.

And if you can set your car up. And set it up to be quick in all conditions - bumpy, smooth track, heavy or light fuel, new or old cars, all wether conditions.

And if your drivers not only don’t make mistakes but are consistently fast.

And if you know the rules and maximise race starts, restarts, etc…

And if you get the traffic right.

With experience and skill you can get all this and

… you will be very close to winning.

[TCT]

If you don't you don't lose 2 laps, and that is what happened.


Toyota just dominated even before others could make errors.

[Adam43]

Yes, Toyota got everything right. The others did not. This includes the build up and the last two years. The others were very close on pace , or ahead at times, in practice and in the race. But they couldn't get the calls right and they couldn't get the tires right and they couldn't do it lap after lap after lap. In 8 hours that can be 2 laps.

Losing 2 laps is being 0.76% worse! Even in BoP world, running a car for two years gets you that.

The winning car stopped 7 times, the third place 10 times. There is a lot going on.

Toyota were fast and consistent. Some were just fast. Some were fast, but fell off. Some were Peugeot.

Well done Toyota. Very impressive.

Let's see if the others have that level of impressiveness first.