FIA App K regulations - 01-01-2012

[terence]

Especially if the inspector really cares and not just looking forward to the promised lunch.

[apriliadriver]

While we're on the subject of HTPs - have any Forumists with a HTP'd car received a deathless letter from M. Duncan of the MSA setting out the charges for revalidating them ? I think we all knew that the existing ones were being invalidated sometime soon, but ...

It's a corker ! One of the best bits is the statement that in order to avoid a rush (Stand Back ! Stand Back !!) there is a sliding scale with the cheap(er) fees this year and then increasing until 2015.

Even better is the scale of charges - from £400-ish to £800-ish this year depending which category you are in. Don't look in the envelope for an explanation of the categories, that's somewhere else. In late 2015 the sliding scale moves up to £480 to £930. And on top of that is the HTP Scrutineer's expenses, which is going to take the basic Early Bird HTP over £500 (not that I begrudge the Scroots some dosh for their time and travel etc.). But all-in-all that is an expensive barcode and hologram.

Now to paraphrase 'Life of Brian' ... "what's an HTP ever done for you ?". I have never been asked to show my car's HTP at scrutineering at a circuit.
I can imagine that many racers will keep their old HTP and buy a couple of new tyres instead...
Nick

[simon drabble]

Unless the series you compete in is an FIA sanctioned race it is upto the organizer if they wish to enforce the papers being in date. All pretty pointless as it simply proves that for a moment in time every 5 years your car conforms.

[terence]

Yet another nail in the coffin for "Historic Motorsport"? Should bring some prices down if owners are unwilling to be fleeced.What if half a grid turned up without HTPs,would the race be cancelled?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Unless the series you compete in is an FIA sanctioned race it is upto the organizer if they wish to enforce the papers being in date. All pretty pointless as it simply proves that for a moment in time every 5 years your car conforms.

That's my take, and will be interesting to see what stance organisers take. As it is not unusual now to be racing in some categories against cars with no HTP or with considerable changes after getting them it really should not make a lot of difference?

What is frustrating to me about the whole business is that the goalposts move. I have one car that was granted HTP without question, but because it has now been decided by the powers that one modification commonly carried out is maybe not period correct likely it will be refused next time! So that car will be raced without new papers and with a sympathetic organiser, or not at all.

Would be nice to get a letter from MSA explaining the HTP re-issue costs etc, especially as I have clutch of the darn things that will be required to be done- if I decide to bother!

[zefarelly]

My Cars up for renewal at the end of this year, and the letter threatens a sliding scale of increasing costs. Spa last year we needed papers, but generally not.

I'm actually considering offering my services as an inspector as there is no one in the South east . . .at all. THe late Alan Putt did my papers originally.

I will renew as it protects my investment to an extent and gives me the 'passport' to better events. equally, like voting, gives me the moral high ground when hot rods turn up in the same race!

[Al Weyman]

You guys have probably seen this http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...g-regulations/

[Mike Bell]

No I hadn't Al, so thanks for the link. Good to see the issue getting some (negative) publicity. Let's hope other publications catch on!

Not having received any communication from the MSA it fills in some gaps.

[kjw]

Can anyone confirm the Bands

A?
B?
C?

The car is a Pre 66 Cooper S, I am hoping for Band A.

[DaveGT6]

Not sure on how the banding works, again hoping for band A; maybe it's linked to your council tax band

Personally I'm really undecided on this. I've done a few races where HTP was asked for, Spa for instance but if I recall that was with the Dutch historic series. All other races at Spa haven't required HTP. The Guards with HSCC always needed HTP but I'm unlikely to continue in that due to the class structure (the car not the driver!)

The DW quote implies an assumption by FIA that as historic racers are wealthy and own valuable cars they'll pay up. I don't regard myself as wealthy and racing is a very significant expenditure for me that I accept as I love doing it. However, I need a race budget and spending £500 upwards to renew something that I believed was a lifelong purchase annoys me.

What will I get for this additional (every 5 year) expenditure? Moral high ground? Higher re-sale value for the car? Entry to select events?

I got into HTP sanctioned racing as I (very naively) believed that it would provide a strictly controlled, historically relevant and cost constrained (due to regulations) form of motorsport.

Now having removed the rose tinted specs all I'm left with is a strong sense of hypocrisy. Why should I repeatedly pay a fee for a document that guarantees..........what?

[FISCracer]

I suggest that nobody applies for an HTP renewal until absolutely necessary. The 50 quid saving to do it this year is neither here nor there in an overall cost of maybe £1000 per car and there is no necessity to do so until the beginning of next season in any case. When the race organisers see empty grids looming I suspect that the requirement for current HTP will be dropped and the FIA's money grab will become an irrelevance. As Simon says HTP's only prove compliance at a point in time so are no guarantee of adherence when a car is raced, in any case.

BTW will the new rules mean a level playing field with cars scrutineered in Europe or will we all be be 'HTP tourists'? That and enforcement are rather more of an issue from my point of view but they don't create income for the FIA.

Whilst we are on the point why should a championship which has more than one event outside the home country be deemed international. I thought we were supposed to have a single market for goods and services within the EU.

What are the MSA doing to protect us against the FIA's unnecessary interventions?

[Mike Bell]

It's very easy to get the impression when racing in Europe that what conforms in one country doesn't over here.

The only reason I can find to justify renewing some if not all my HTPs is, as Joe observes, to protect the value of any particular car. However, taking the stance that will renew when decide to sell would be sensible, like selling a road car with 'new MOT and full years tax'!

Anyway, a call to MSA today to find out why the have not received any communication on the subject! All I could find on their website was a document advising members how to use social media and forums........

[terence]

Funny how things have changed HTP wise when considering the original intention.They were a means of creating a data base of all cars that had the original FIA paperwork (remember them?)
There is a particular car (unfortunately a MGB) that was bought by my ex boss Arthur Carter from Barry SS.We ran it through the shop as was the norm before any car got locked away, Arthur did not like the h/top being painted in the original Ice Blue Metalic so we paited it in black to match the already black body. I ran it for a couple of days just to check all was well with it.Never forgotten how much of a slug it was!! Extremely heavy having had a new shell just before Arthur bought it,and left quite a lot to be desired in the handling department.This was duely sorted in compliance with its FIA paperwork.
Car was sold several years ago, and is now a regular on the circuits and regularly gives very surprising lap times !!
So, whats the point of HTPs? If cars a going to be so extensively modified that their conformity bears bugger all resemblance to the original FIA papers, said car should have the paperwork removed-they did it with some Griffiths.

[Mike Bell]

There's always a simple answer as to why correspondence isn't received- in this case MSA HTP database is not linked or cross referenced to / with Members database, so a change of address needs to be notified twice.

So if you have moved since HTP issued get onto MSA and tell them new address.....

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

There's always a simple answer as to why correspondence isn't received- in this case MSA HTP database is not linked or cross referenced to / with Members database, so a change of address needs to be notified twice.

So if you have moved since HTP issued get onto MSA and tell them new address.....

Did you ask them whether they have more than just the two databases that may need updating?

[Mike Harte]

Now having removed the rose tinted specs all I'm left with is a strong sense of hypocrisy. Why should I repeatedly pay a fee for a document that guarantees..........what?

A quick glance at the Lister Knobbly thread answers that question. And that is a big, fat nothing!

It is apparent that if you can afford £250k, you can buy a brand new, never raced, rallied or even used for shopping trips, car that comes with a set of crisp, shiny HTP papers.

Am I being pedantic in asking what the Historic in HTP stands for or means?

[Peter Mallett]

Nope, you are quite correct.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

A quick glance at the Lister Knobbly thread answers that question. And that is a big, fat nothing!

It is apparent that if you can afford £250k, you can buy a brand new, never raced, rallied or even used for shopping trips, car that comes with a set of crisp, shiny HTP papers.

Am I being pedantic in asking what the Historic in HTP stands for or means?

Heisting The Punters?

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

There's always a simple answer as to why correspondence isn't received- in this case MSA HTP database is not linked or cross referenced to / with Members database, so a change of address needs to be notified twice.

So if you have moved since HTP issued get onto MSA and tell them new address.....

I hadn't received a letter either and was already on the case to contact MSA. Although the HTP contains both your address at the time the HTP was granted and your race licence number, despite informing them of change of address regarding licence, this doesn't cross reference to HTP as you point out.

So I call them today and say I have a query regarding HTP. Immediate response is - 'is it regarding a letter you have received?' - in a very weary tone. When I said no it's about a change of address the person I was speaking to became much more upbeat!

I wonder if they're are receiving some 'Mr Angry' style calls over this?

Very helpful and address details changed instantly so I'm very happy with the service.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Especially if the inspector really cares and not just looking forward to the promised lunch.

not on yer nelly me ole mate, at their prices they can buy their own...
I see one post where the Gent has never been asked for HTP's, we were last year at the Classic, where, as far as I understand, the series raced in the HTP's are not required, never mind keeps em aitch a pee pee why.

[Mogger]

I have received two invitations to renew HTPs for my two race cars. I have emailed Mr Duncan (technical@msauk.org) to say "No Thanks" much along the lines of the Motorsport article.

You maybe interested that my FIVA card to do the MM cost £90-£115 and lasts 10 years. HTP papers cost £405-£930 and last 5 years and in truth are only needed for LM and Spa.

Who mentioned profiteering???

The chap that does the FIVA cards is also one of the chaps that does the HTP inspection!! How does that work??

The 'old' HTPs will remain with my cars and as the spec hasn't changed / can't change will be there at some time in the future for the new owner to fork out money to register his name against. The notion that renewing HTPs protects your investment is nonsense. The current HTPs show that the car is compliant so once on record, are current forever.....that is, unless you change the spec....but then it shouldn't have had HTPs in the first place!!

Rant over.

[p261brm]

As a postscrip, I see a photograph is required to be taken at the point of the FIA sticker is affixed to the car by the inspector, to prevent Unscruperlous owners from having two or more identical cars, as if anyone would go to that trouble?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by p261brm

As a postscrip, I see a photograph is required to be taken at the point of the FIA sticker is affixed to the car by the inspector, to prevent Unscruperlous owners from having two or more identical cars, as if anyone would go to that trouble?

Now there's a thought. Bit like transponders, just have one and move from car to car! Although have shown papers on many occasions can't remember the hologram & barcode ever being scrutinised......

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Now there's a thought. Bit like transponders, just have one and move from car to car! Although have shown papers on many occasions can't remember the hologram & barcode ever being scrutinised......

My usual tounge in cheek response Mike, to some of the money making schemes dreamed up over the years and not only in motor sport, car parking being a real gem of an idea, one car I was involved with for some time never had the I D sticker fitted and never once was it questioned, from Silverstone through the rest of Europe. Of course cars are developed during their life, usually a couple of years at most, then the 'barn' historic racing has given an immense number a new lease of life, the so called 'Martini' cars two bites of the cherry, the 70's the 80's thundersports etc, now revived again by the HSCC series, cars as back in the 70's most with the updates that took place in the 80's still fitted, in particular reference to brakes, engines and suspension, but HTP's were issued with these mods in place, now it would appear, the 80's mods removed, new papers issued, with the resulting expense at a time when the folding is still a little scarce. Race series organisers should lay down the rules, as most do already, and most race on mainland Europe and organise the events, the scrutes check for infringment of the various rules, then confine HTP's, FIA etc to be re-filed, inder B, for BIN.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

A quick glance at the Lister Knobbly thread answers that question. And that is a big, fat nothing!

It is apparent that if you can afford £250k, you can buy a brand new, never raced, rallied or even used for shopping trips, car that comes with a set of crisp, shiny HTP papers.

Am I being pedantic in asking what the Historic in HTP stands for or means?

I did Spa three years running without showing my papers.Its a non FIA event after all.!