A way to save GT1

[JAG]

Blast from the past:-

http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...re/default.htm


I remember disagreeing strongly at the time such grand plans for GT1 were sustainable, especially as much of the burden would fall on privateers to run the cars.

I think it's now proven you require major manufactuers like Peugeot and Nissan, who don't necessarily have production supercars, together with low volume road car and specialist racing manufactuers, to sustain a factory backed top class, especially if you go globetrotting around the world.

That obviously rules out a production based class, unless you wish to go down the uncertain route of homologation specials.

Maybe LMGTP coupes are the best of both worlds for a 'dream car' top class, and we can leave GT racing to true, real world, production roadcars.

[chunterer]

But again, I really don't think the series has to be a manufacturer based series and I seriously doubt FIA would give it much chance if manufacturers suddenly decided they did want to run full blown efforts. The last time we had that it got killed off by cost and to a degree popularity and before that the same thing happened with ITC and WTCC.

Production based big car tin top championships are a hit with fans but Bernie and co don't like them for obvious reasons!

GT1 is doing pretty well at the moment with the 'built and supplied cars' - I agree that it's at a crossroads to a degree: either press on with full blown assaults (bad move that will kill it off) or continue as it is and try and encourage a few more models under the current format - much more achievable imo.

There's a fine line here.. I wouldn't want to be the one deciding what to do with a class that on face value has massive potential! It does need protecting though.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But again, I really don't think the series has to be a manufacturer based series and I seriously doubt FIA would give it much chance if manufacturers suddenly decided they did want to run full blown efforts. The last time we had that it got killed off by cost and to a degree popularity and before that the same thing happened with ITC and WTCC.

Production based big car tin top championships are a hit with fans but Bernie and co don't like them for obvious reasons!

GT1 is doing pretty well at the moment with the 'built and supplied cars' - I agree that it's at a crossroads to a degree: either press on with full blown assaults (bad move that will kill it off) or continue as it is and try and encourage a few more models under the current format - much more achievable imo.

There's a fine line here.. I wouldn't want to be the one deciding what to do with a class that on face value has massive potential! It does need protecting though.

This applies mainly to the US, but after looking at the picture in the Monza thread, a wonderful opportuinity is being missed.

Now Panoz and the IMSA are probably butt buddies with the ACO untoil hell freezes or the series becomes all but dead; therefore if the latter would happen, and it is not that far from it, or if the FIA could find a partner in the US, the FIA could run the same basic cars they have now, but modified to the point that running both ACO and FIA would require good mechanics and considerable work.
It was done with the IMSA and Trans-Am, the engine had to moved quite a bit in the engine for a dedicated IMSA car to run Trans-Am, but it was done.

Make the cars closer to the street cars: minium five inch ride height sixteen, or twelve, inches infront of the rear tire; no wings; no rear diffuser, except the exact one the comes with the prod. car; wider wheel and allow fender flares; no restrictors; weight to engine type and size.

They would lose five or six seconds a lap without the aero gimmicks, the wider tires and better engine performance would gain back at least two of those seconds.
The cars would more exciting to watch, and cheaper.

The FIA could send the cars over for two to three races in North America, for a World GT championship, while the US could have its own series for the local boys.
In Europe the GT boys could do as some did here in the past for the IMSA and SCCA, re-work the car for ACO races as seen fit by team owner.

Just an idea.
Bob

[Purist]

Why are wings and aero "gimmicks"? The real gimmicks are the plastic bits kids stick on their Civics to try and pretend to be perfomance cars. And why would this re-worked class be any more exciting? It's just as possible to get any of the current cars sideways, even with the aero. Of course, with rules that attempt to equalize and such good drivers with the big players, it can be extremely difficult to make a decisive move in the race. You want to make things more exciting, reduce electronics, and lower costs; simply ban traction and launch control in all four LM classes.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

Why are wings and aero "gimmicks"?

The wings and other gimmicks allow the high cornering speeds that are used to cover up the expensive restricted engines lack of horsepower.

Alain Prost and Vic Elford have both said that said same gimmicks take away ability to use techniques used in the past to corner quickly, i.e. high speed drifts and controlled slides.

If you try to drift an car with aero aids, you will crash. The diffusers and wings are there to prevent the tires from sliding.
Greenwood said when he built the winged car, it required an entirely new style of driving, he could no longer hang the tale out at Daytona as he had done before.
Electronic gadgets are among the gimmicks I was referring to.

If you ever saw a car hang the tale out setting up for a high speed drift you would know what I mean by exciting.(and I suspect you fully know what I mean)
I used to watch cars enter and exit styles. One could see quickly by style, without knowing who was driving, who was a hot-shoe and who was merely a race car driver.

YOu are absolutely correct about the rules limiting drivers.
The restricted engines lack the high speed torque necessary to make a charge. They work the same way in the IMSA they do in NASCAR, and those driver say if you do not get an aero assist in passing you will not do it with engine power, and you then a huge amount of ground,until you regain a speed that allow you to equal the speed of the cars passing you.

Bob

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

This applies mainly to the US, but after looking at the picture in the Monza thread, a wonderful opportuinity is being missed.

Now Panoz and the IMSA are probably butt buddies with the ACO untoil hell freezes or the series becomes all but dead; therefore if the latter would happen, and it is not that far from it, or if the FIA could find a partner in the US, the FIA could run the same basic cars they have now, but modified to the point that running both ACO and FIA would require good mechanics and considerable work.
It was done with the IMSA and Trans-Am, the engine had to moved quite a bit in the engine for a dedicated IMSA car to run Trans-Am, but it was done.

Make the cars closer to the street cars: minium five inch ride height sixteen, or twelve, inches infront of the rear tire; no wings; no rear diffuser, except the exact one the comes with the prod. car; wider wheel and allow fender flares; no restrictors; weight to engine type and size.

They would lose five or six seconds a lap without the aero gimmicks, the wider tires and better engine performance would gain back at least two of those seconds.
The cars would more exciting to watch, and cheaper.

The FIA could send the cars over for two to three races in North America, for a World GT championship, while the US could have its own series for the local boys.
In Europe the GT boys could do as some did here in the past for the IMSA and SCCA, re-work the car for ACO races as seen fit by team owner.

Just an idea.
Bob

FIA have GT3 & GT4 we just need a series where there is no conflict with these classes. GT3 conflicts with World Challenge and GT4 with Koni Cup

[ThePenguin]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

This applies mainly to the US, but after looking at the picture in the Monza thread, a wonderful opportuinity is being missed.

Now Panoz and the IMSA are probably butt buddies with the ACO untoil hell freezes or the series becomes all but dead; therefore if the latter would happen, and it is not that far from it, or if the FIA could find a partner in the US, the FIA could run the same basic cars they have now, but modified to the point that running both ACO and FIA would require good mechanics and considerable work.
It was done with the IMSA and Trans-Am, the engine had to moved quite a bit in the engine for a dedicated IMSA car to run Trans-Am, but it was done.

Make the cars closer to the street cars: minium five inch ride height sixteen, or twelve, inches infront of the rear tire; no wings; no rear diffuser, except the exact one the comes with the prod. car; wider wheel and allow fender flares; no restrictors; weight to engine type and size.

They would lose five or six seconds a lap without the aero gimmicks, the wider tires and better engine performance would gain back at least two of those seconds.
The cars would more exciting to watch, and cheaper.

The FIA could send the cars over for two to three races in North America, for a World GT championship, while the US could have its own series for the local boys.
In Europe the GT boys could do as some did here in the past for the IMSA and SCCA, re-work the car for ACO races as seen fit by team owner.

Just an idea.
Bob

One of the problems with this idea, is factory teams like Corvette racing and Prodrive start making radical street cars that are road legal prototypes, and they make just enough to make it a production car.

[jaybond]

Bring on BMW M6 and Porsche 911 Turbo. These 2 cars should already be in the GT1 class!

[jaybond]

Not forgeting, the Mercedes-Benz CLK AMG Black.

[dj4monie]

In all seriousness, you will never have extra large grids in the US unless several things happen -

- ALMS picks up a title sponsor

- OWR merges with IRL or one of them just dies because of lack of entries

If both of things happen, ALMS will see growth series wide, which will increase grids in all classes as I feel as many should that a regular grid for the sprint races should be around 30-35 cars.

The cost of the cars aren't that important, its the cost to be competitive...

In GT1 I would say your cost to be competitive is around 2-3 million per season, maybe an additional million to do Le Mans. A single Nextel Cup entry is not even competitive at those prices. Why would you want to do an single car effort in Cup is beyond me, you'll never win?! Sponsors are tightening belts, your side panels will be blank most of the season, look at Robby Gordon...

Racing is a business first and foremost at this level NOT A HOBBY!

If you had as much money floating around in the ALMS as you do in Cup, your fields would be much larger trust me. Robin Miller's report on the gap between the haves and have nots just doesn't effect who gets paid more, but where people want to spend their money. They are more than likely to get a larger return in Cup if they run mid pack and occasionally challenge for a Top 5 or Top 10 finish and we all KNOW THAT.

In ALMS you have to either have enough cheddar to either -

Beat Audi

Beat GM

Beat the Factory Acura and Porsche teams

Beat the Factory supported Ferrari or Porsche teams

In the FIA GT, you have available cars however, but let's be honest the ALMS Corvettes are not suited for European tracks and becomes very clear at tracks like Monza, where basically its flat out interrupted by couple of chicanes and Parabalica. But its a solid Top 3 car at most events because of its better brakes, better overall cornering and long stroke V8 torque.

The Saleen was in the hands of Zakspeed fast everywhere. Why somebody else doesn't run it or why Ocrea opted for LMS instead of FIA is a bit strange but I believe it has to do with budget to run the current variation of the car competitively.

There is no one or simple "fix" and we know that.

More money would solve alot, how much however remains to be seen.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

In all seriousness, you will never have extra large grids in the US unless several things happen -

- ALMS picks up a title sponsor

- OWR merges with IRL or one of them just dies because of lack of entries

If both of things happen, ALMS will see growth series wide, which will increase grids in all classes as I feel as many should that a regular grid for the sprint races should be around 30-35 cars.

The cost of the cars aren't that important, its the cost to be competitive...

In GT1 I would say your cost to be competitive is around 2-3 million per season, maybe an additional million to do Le Mans. A single Nextel Cup entry is not even competitive at those prices. Why would you want to do an single car effort in Cup is beyond me, you'll never win?! Sponsors are tightening belts, your side panels will be blank most of the season, look at Robby Gordon...

Racing is a business first and foremost at this level NOT A HOBBY!

Saleen here in the US had a 5 mill per year budget and they were not competitive. A GT2 team could be top 10% with a 2-3 million per budget. GT1 budgets, 7-10 million per year.

[dj4monie]

Oh, I stand corrected....

[Speed-King]

Anyone read this?

Originally Posted by murphythebear

The Bear’s heard there’ll be a Viper at Mid-Ohio, unfortunately not in GT1, but in GT2. Maybe not unfortunately, because Murphy hears that the ACO is certain to kill off GT1 and embrace GT3. According to the paddock, the only things in doubt now are when it happens and whether GT2 goes with it to be replaced by a single GT3 class. Anyway, the newly upgraded Competition Coupe will be welcome.

[minimangler]

What the is wrong with GT1?
It creates close racing, and should not be killed off just because the americans can't organise a field.
I'm sorry, but I am VERY angry () that the suggestion of killing off GT1 is being bandied about- FIA GT1 and LMS GT1 are very nice, thank you very much.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by minimangler

What the is wrong with GT1?
It creates close racing, and should not be killed off just because the americans can't organise a field.
I'm sorry, but I am VERY angry () that the suggestion of killing off GT1 is being bandied about- FIA GT1 and LMS GT1 are very nice, thank you very much.

The direction to kill off GT1 is not coming from America, or the Americans. It is coming from France. I think the question becomes, does GT1 AND GT2 get killed off, in favour of a singular GT class then?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The direction to kill off GT1 is not coming from America, or the Americans. It is coming from France. I think the question becomes, does GT1 AND GT2 get killed off, in favour of a singular GT class then?

On the basis of Le Mans this year I'd say no. The GT1's were in plentiful supply and had good reliability on the whole. If anything, GT2 was much the weaker class there this year, although it does have a much larger list of teams who weren't invited to LM.

In my opinion there are quite obviously enough cars around in each class for it to be worth keeping them separate, for now at least. With things as they are now, if the future is to be any different then I don't think we'll really see signs of it until 2009 or so...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

On the basis of Le Mans this year I'd say no. The GT1's were in plentiful supply and had good reliability on the whole. If anything, GT2 was much the weaker class there this year, although it does have a much larger list of teams who weren't invited to LM.

In my opinion there are quite obviously enough cars around in each class for it to be worth keeping them separate, for now at least. With things as they are now, if the future is to be any different then I don't think we'll really see signs of it until 2009 or so...

It's nice to have an opinion, it is another thing when the ACO are telling people they are going to change things, and how they are thinking of making those changes. In the end, it is the ACO's opinion that matters, not yours or mine.

[minimangler]

If any class should be scrapped it is LMP2.
Any class that can be won after losing an hour is a joke.
And anyone can see European GT1 is in stunning health right now.
Send any ACO man who's thinkin' of changing it my way

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by minimangler

And anyone can see European GT1 is in stunning health right now.

Yes, of course great health... which is of course why almost all of the National Series have killed the class off in their individual series.

[SALEEN S7R]

GT1 in Europe is in great health. FFSA use GT1 cars as do I beleive Italian GT's. FIA GT regularly gets GT1 grids of up to 15 GT1 cars, 19 if you include the citation cup entries and the LMS too normally attracts 8 or so GT1 entries. I would hardly call that bad.

[SebringMG]

The cars are expensive to build and run and i would think that they will try to reduce costs - the ACO have something in mind which if it is not done in conjunction with the FIA could result in considerable harm to the ACO classes!!

[pederb]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

GT1 in Europe is in great health. FFSA use GT1 cars as do I beleive Italian GT's. FIA GT regularly gets GT1 grids of up to 15 GT1 cars, 19 if you include the citation cup entries and the LMS too normally attracts 8 or so GT1 entries. I would hardly call that bad.

I agree totally, and I think the only place GT1 is in crisis is here in USA. So let's look at what happen here and try to learn from it. Prevent total factory own teams like Team Corvette, if Aston Factory Team would have run a full FIAGT1 schedule, we might have the same problem in Europe, where a factory team with unlimited resources come in a kill the opposition.

Just my 0.02

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

GT1 in Europe is in great health. FFSA use GT1 cars as do I beleive Italian GT's. FIA GT regularly gets GT1 grids of up to 15 GT1 cars, 19 if you include the citation cup entries and the LMS too normally attracts 8 or so GT1 entries. I would hardly call that bad.

Italian GT cancelled the GT1 class this year. The FFSA is the only National Series allowing them to run now. The numbers of GT1 cars running as a total is down substantially over what it was five years ago or so. The market is shrinking, and the ACO is looking in other directions.

[SALEEN S7R]

FFSA may well be the only series running GT1 cars but to say the market is shrinking is incorrect. Sure its shrinking in terms of national series but then is that really suprising given the lack of promotion and exposure the series get? FIA GT and the LMS on the other hand have thriving GT1 classes, why? Well down to a number of reasons, not least promotion. As long as FIA GT and LMS continues to grow the teams will get more revenue and therefore be able to keep up with the increasing costs. If the series shrinks then we could well have a problem, as things are at the moment however there isnt one. IMO of course.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

FFSA may well be the only series running GT1 cars but to say the market is shrinking is incorrect.

When there are half the cars that were running in a category, than there were five and six years ago, I call that a 50% market loss, which means the market is shrinking. If you believe that only running half the cars is not a shrinking market, than fair enough.

When the ACO cancels the GT1 category, you'll see even greater shrinkage. There will be no growth in the LMS, as it won't be a legal category soon. From there, it is only a matter of time before it disappears from FIA as well. The current iteration of GT1's days are numbered.