Miller on merger attempt

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, I could keep arguing with you back and forth, as you didn't even address your inaccurate statement that the IRL was thrown out of Phoenix on Buddy Jobe's watch or that Champ Car doesn't book and isn't responsible for its own TV or Pole Day at Indy years ago had half as many seats, but it's obvious we should agree to disagree. I'm done with the CW mentality. It's not "discussable."

Neither are your completely biased opinions on the IRL. Continuous years bleating anit-ChampCar messages in this forum grates enough forum members as it is.

Back to the subject at hand, neither series are in a strong position so a merger is definetely on the cards. It probably won't happen in time for 2008, as there is simply too much to discuss between the IRL and ChampCar owners, but it seems that there may be one series in 2009.

Even if ChampCar were to fold, it doesn't automatically make the IRL a strong series. They may have 'won' the battle, so to speak, but I don't see the series getting any more popular because of it, I don't suspect sponsors will be flocking to their series just because ChampCar dissolved (if it does) and I don't see a host of teams switching just because of any sort of collapse of one series or another.

What I do forsee is that if one series does collapse, the other will simply continue to struggle while NASCAR continue their conquest of the American motor-racing landscape.

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

More than a little revisionist history going on here.

I think you should read up 'Tony George's Original IRL Manifesto' and then come back to us about revisionist history.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

Ultimately, George's offer here is significant, because it is the first time in which he has approached Champ Car with anything beyond an unconditional surrender. It's still a lowball offer, and it's probably too late to implement the terms for 2008, but hopefully, it will lead to an increased dialogue throughout the upcoming season and a fair reconciliation before the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's centennial in 2009.

Hopefully, no one's going to mess things up this time. Neither side can afford to go back to the drawing board.

It is interesting he has changed tack so suddenly. Since 1991, it has been everyone trying to deal with tony and rarely has he ever responded with anything.

I think when people see what turns up at homestead they'll understand why he is quick to deal now.

I've noticed a rush of people on the forums that are like "Deal, Deal, Deal!" because I'm sure like anyone they want this to be over. But not so fast. Jumping at the first deal and we may end up worse off then before. Like I've said, we probably have one shot to get this right or open wheel racing will truly sink beneath the waves.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

More than a little revisionist history going on here.

The gringos approached TG asking for help to run in the 500 as a means to strengthen their own series. The "plan" was that additional sponsor interest could be secured in their own series if sponsors were brought to the 500 by existing CC teams. The goal had nothing to do with a first step - or any step- to merging. The teams would run Indy to get more sponsor $$ and a share of the purse. Period. They were trying to improve their bottom-line to support their CC activities.

Don't try to write this up as some sort of peace mission. It wasn't. It was a cynical (in my view) attempt to get TG to underwrite ChampCar's marketing program. The last thing TG would want to do, then and now, is to do anything that would extend the life of CC.

As far as injuries go, yep, there sure are a lot of drivers both active and retired who walk with a limp - or are lucky to be walking at all. What I have not seen is any hard statistical data to support the argument. Put that on the table (not the anecdotal crap) and we can discuss it. I remember Tim Richmond saying he got out of open wheel to avoid the walking with a limp part.

Ah, well the deal offered by tony is really not much different than what the amigos offered last year. So offered by Tony, good, offered by amigos, bad.

Running at indy costs a fortune and it certainly would not have lined their pockets. It might have helped champcar teams with sponsorship, but what you lack seeing is the positive benefit it would have to irl teams as well by having a quality field to compete with, rather than the ragtag bits they scraped together at indy last year.

My argument with IC was that he described most of the injuries as "minimal", of which concussions and broken bones are not.

[indycool]

Read it again. I said "a good portion." I did NOT say most. In your CW enthusiasm, do not lie about what I post.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, I could keep arguing with you back and forth, as you didn't even address your inaccurate statement that the IRL was thrown out of Phoenix on Buddy Jobe's watch or that Champ Car doesn't book and isn't responsible for its own TV or Pole Day at Indy years ago had half as many seats, but it's obvious we should agree to disagree. I'm done with the CW mentality. It's not "discussable."

It was thrown out by isc, but was a dying dog on Jobes watch.

It's not discussable because I outdebated you.

[luke]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Running at indy costs a fortune and it certainly would not have lined their pockets. It might have helped champcar teams with sponsorship, but what you lack seeing is the positive benefit it would have to irl teams as well by having a quality field to compete with, rather than the ragtag bits they scraped together at indy last year.

I remember Ben Collins back in 2004 stating that to run Indy is the equivalent of running 4 other IRL races such is the cost...Just a comparison there..

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

Read it again. I said "a good portion." I did NOT say most. In your CW enthusiasm, do not lie about what I post.

What about your TF enthusiasm IC?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

Read it again. I said "a good portion." I did NOT say most. In your CW enthusiasm, do not lie about what I post.

Exactly how many percentage points of those injuries listed would you describe as minimal? I wanna make sure we are exact here Dr. indycool.

[luke]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Exactly how many percentage points of those injuries listed would you describe as minimal? I wanna make sure we are exact here Dr. indycool.

[JohnSSC]

While I am tempted to answer only in emoticons, I feel compelled to ask: "What list of injuries?"

Does there exist somewhere a list of who was injured and what the injury was?

What is "TF enthusiasm?"

[johntt]

The way i judge CC and IRL is by what elements of the old CART Indycar they have.

IRL has

• Indy 500, Mid Ohio etc.
• The variety of tracks.
• ethanol, similar to the methanol of old.
• Low nose design.

CC has

• Long Beach, Surfers, Laguna, Cleveland etc.
• The 2.65l V8 turbo for that propoerr Indycar noise, the IRL 3.5l NA V8s sound dull imo.
• The shape of the old style Indycars, i.e. the roll hoop instead of an F1 airbox, less downforce and the horizontal fuelling filler.

So neither is perfect.

TG and KK et al need to get out the old tapes of 1993-4 Indycar and 2000-03 CART and see what made them so great.

[ggreen29]

Even if there were a reunification, open-wheel racing has a huge struggle against NASCAR. IRL & CC are like two cheerleaders arguing at a football game. Few are paying any attention to them; the rest are watching the action on the field.

Neither IRL or CC has demonstrated they understand the cause of NASCAR's success (or their own failures). Is it due to marketing, wisdom (they've been doing this for a very long time and know what works and what doesn't) or substance (today's Americans just don't enjoy road racing)? And neither series seems to have a real plan for the future against NASCAR. This shows how limited their thinking is.

Are they comfortable being a feeder series to NASCAR, watching their stars struggle to compete with the tin-topped good ol' boys? Until someone comes up with a plan to compete with NASCAR, they're like two vagabonds fighting over cigarette butts. Eventually one will quit and slink off, letting the other pretend he won something.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

While I am tempted to answer only in emoticons, I feel compelled to ask: "What list of injuries?"

Does there exist somewhere a list of who was injured and what the injury was?

What is "TF enthusiasm?"

Uh, I listed them 2 pages ago, you haven't been reading the thread?

That would be trackforum enthusiasm, trackforum being the irl CW.

[Alex K]

Mountainstar, cool down mate, it's not CW, you claimed KK and GF are billionairs and can run series for years, TG is millionair, according to your pals at CW, why wouldnt GF and KK make an offer to TG, let them do Champ Car World Series, buy assets of ICS... and we've got one series. Y'know at least that infamous 24 cars /20 races. ;-)

[luke]

Originally Posted by johntt

[*]IRL: Low nose design.[/LIST]

Eh? The IRL has the highest nose there is in open wheel, which doesn't help when you crash etc as this allows the car to take off at certain events..

[Alex K]

With all due respect luke, but it's not because of the nose-cone cars take off and airborne. It's much more complicated.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by indycool

Okay, here are the inaccuracies:

--IRL management is responsible for TV ratings. IRL management is responsible for putting on races and generally, the ratings have been low, but growing slowly, like attendance. Does ABC/ESPN production and management have something to do with it? Does scheduling have something to do with it? The IRL management is not the ONLY factor involved. Whether Sadie in Omaha has a Nielsen box and does or doesn't watch has something to do with it, too.
--Pikes Peak was bought by ISC and closed down. Nazareth was bought by ISC and closed down. The IRL ran races at both places until they closed down. The IRL didn't own the tracks.
--Being kicked out of New Hampshire? (mutual). Being kicked out of Phoenix? (scheduling problem with its second Cup race). Atlanta? (mutual...it didn't work for USAC in the '60s or CART in the '80s, either). Charlotte? (yes, after the tragic accident there, Humpy Wheeler said he wouldn't run them any more there). Fontana (see Phoenix). Michigan (scheduling problem). So, of all mentioned, one (Charlotte) could be exagerrated to "kicked out."
--100-plus drivers hospitalized? That just hasn't happened.
--A "crippling lack of attendance?" If true, why don't we hear promoters complain? They must be making money because some people must be showing up and buying tickets and corporate support is also there.
--"Bare aluminum at Indy." Sure, there's some in Turn 3 but there are 270,000 seats at Indy, not just a section of Turn 3 and the rest of them have bodies in them. Call it 250,000 and say bad attendance? Uh uh.
--"Drivers bailing as fast as possible to NASCAR?" You can look at how many years Franchitti and Hornish spent in the IRL before those TWO (2) drivers went to NASCAR.

why do you even bother posting?

you are clearly biased towards a seires, not helping anyone in this thread at all because all you weant to believe is that indycar is the best series. you really are talking BS, why cant you get out tony georges shadow and see the light? both series will die in a few years if it stay how it is now, so my advice is just save your time in trying to defend TG and his also unsucessful open wheel series.

[mp356a]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Based on what George originally wanted, it certainly hasn't been a success:

Apart from the Indy 500, car counts have rarely exceeded that put up by ChampCars. In fact, only since CART going bankrupt have IRL out-done the other series in terms of car count.

I'm not going to go researching for George's original IRL manifesto, as frankly I cannot be bothered. But from what I can remember:

Tony George's original idea of an oval based series (with perhaps a road course or two) was a lie. He's now got plenty of road races on the calendar - including street courses which frankly he despised.

In 2007, I count St Petersburg (street course), Watkins Glen (road course), Mid-Ohio (road course), Infineon Raceway (road course) and Belle Isle (street course).

Hang on a second, this is starting to look like the old CART series he despised. :noes:

Tony George's original idea of a grid full of Americans with only a handful of foreign drivers was a lie. Apart from Sam Hornish Jr (and maybe the latest Andretti), there have been few successful American drivers. Particularly those that were there in 1996. Where have most of them gone now? Oh, that's right, NASCAR. Or Grand-Am. Or the ALMS.

The IRL have Honda supporting them at the moment, but all they have to do is give notice that they will pull-out and suddenly the IRL isn't looking as strong as everyone wants to believe.

The claim ChampCar tried to 'blow them up' is ridiculous. Tony didn't want to play ball. The players in ChampCar followed suit.

We may be raking over old ground, but it was Tony who threw his toys out of the pram, whinged, moaned and said 'I'll just form my own series then'. Then he made his ridiculous rules for the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the rest is history so to speak...

So ridicule the current ChampCar series all you want. Ridicule the current owners.

But it takes two to tango. And this current harping on about how the current ChampCar owners are contributing to the current crisis and harping on about how Tony George is offering a 'fair deal' is pure BS considering it was his decisions to split open-wheel racing at the end of 1995 that contributed to this whole mess.

Amen

[indycool]

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/42769/

[mac]

I don't care about the arguments and the who did what to whoms.

The time has come - this has to get done, and it has to get done now.

Stick Kalkhoven and Forsythe on the board, give them $50 million as a compromise and let's get on with it for crying out loud.

Let me re-ignite my dream:

Andretti Green Racing
Marco Andretti
Tony Kanaan
Hideki Mutoh
Danica Patrick

Chip Ganassi Racing
Scott Dixon
Alex Lloyd
Dan Wheldon

Conquest Racing
TBA
TBA

Dale Coyne Racing
Bruno Junqueira
TBA

Dreyer & Reinbold
Sarah Fisher
Buddy Rice

Forsythe Petit Racing
Paul Tracy
TBA

Foyt Enterprises
Darren Manning

Minardi Team USA
TBA
TBA

Newman Haas Lanigan
TBA
Graham Rahal

Panther Racing
Vitor Meira
TBA

PKV Racing
Oriol Servia
Alex Tagliani

Rahal Letterman Racing
Ryan Hunter-Reay
TBA

Rocketsports Racing
Enrique Bernoldi

Team Australia
Simon Pagenaud
Will Power

Team Penske
Ryan Briscoe
Helio Castroneves

Obviously there wouldn't be 31 cars on the grid, but it shows how much depth of talent could be instantly created - particularly when you throw guys like Wilson, Doornbos and Perrera in there who are yet to finalise deals.

And what about the calendar!?!?

Homestead
St Petersburg
Long Beach
Kansas
Indy
Milwaukee
Texas
Iowa
Richmond
Watkins Glen
Toronto
Nashville
Edmonton
Mid-Ohio
Kentucky
Infineon
Belle Isle
Chicagoland
Motegi
Surfers Paradise
Mexico City

It's also unlikely that there would be 21 events through the season, but you can see how good a calendar could be created.

The series would instantly become one of the world's great motorsport spectacles.

DO WHATEVER IT TAKES!

[enemy-ace]

Originally Posted by mac

DO WHATEVER IT TAKES!

Ditto that!

[motofan]

a

[gttouring]

it looks like it might happen have you seen the latest?
NHL have left Champcar to the IRL?!
speedtv . com and Autoblog have the story
this was an ugly thing to happen but let's hope they can arrange it- 2008 is here but why not make it a go? some things can still do it and if team scramble a bit to test and what have you- they have all been there before it won't be that hard.
the sad story is Champcar Atlantics and IPS- do both stay?

[icemachine]

You have a link GT?

Nothing new on Speed that I saw.

“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

I'll believe it if NHL doesn't show up at Sebring and/or shows up in Miami