Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

?? erm. i dont know how to take that?

I guess Monty Python is something that has passed you by.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Woolley

We did and it was. Under the new grading scheme, unfortunately it isn't. Flagging is now imposed very early on when people are still learning to read the race, keep themselves and others safe and haven't realised flagging can be enjoyable just because it's not part of the action, and then having done that they're deemed to know all about it without further instruction. Whatever the MSA is proposing as changes to the scheme we have to get rid of those two deterrents by making flagging a full, trainable discipline and not requiring it for track upgrades. We should still encourage people to try it - under supervision - when numbers allow so that they can find out if they like it and cover it if needed when they don't.

I think Woolley has hit part of the problem squarely on the head. Like I said before the perception that a lot of particularly younger marshals have about flagging is that it's dull and should only be done when you can no longer do Incident. Now part of that perception quite possibly comes from IO's and Experienced Incident Marshals who openly say that they will only go on to flagging or becoming PC when they are "past it" (I will admit to being guilty of this in the past). But a big part of it IMHO comes from the personality of some of the flaggies themselves (the loners) hence why I've heard it described as "anorachy". I know it's not a real word but thats how they were described recently by a trainee. In some ways you could say that we now have too many flaggies because I've been on post with me and 1 other on Incident, a PC, 2 Flaggies and 2 people doing flag to get upgrades. Now the 2 on flag upgrade realised quite quickly that 4 people is too many for a flag point and so volunteered to rotate and help with incident which was appreciated. But when the PC asked the 2 regular flaggies to do the same so that he could partner each with a specific trainee so that the could mentor them on a 1-1 basis the reply he got was "It's not my job to do incident".

Rightly or wrongly Incident is seen as "real Marshalling" by many as it's the discipline that people look at and think "Thats Cool" and it's also where you can get a real adreneline buzz. When people see the Bamber Heroes badges they tend to think of guys n girls jumping off tyre walls to save drivers and put fires out rather than a flaggie or specialist both of whom are equally vital to a successful meeting. Indeed how many time when you have mentioned to none motorsport friends that you are a marshal have you had them sneer back saying things like "Isn't that a bit geeky just waving flags all day?" I know I've certainly heard that quite often, even from regular spectators who should know better.

Now as I also said earlier I'm not anti multi tasking and even though I hate flagging with a passion I will do it when needed, but like Woolley said Flagging should not be part of the upgrade for incident. Personnally I think trainees should do atleast 1 day on each duty just to try it out and see if they enjoy it, but if they don't want to do that then we should respect that choice. We should allow people to choose what they want to specialise in whether that be Incident, Flag or Specialist and by separating Flag from the Incident upgrade process we allow that to happen. IMHO Trainees should be given the time to learn the basics of marshalling before being asked to regularly do a very specialised duty.

To be honest with you all I didn't expect this topic to get so many posts when I started it and it's been interesting reading the debate. However, I must ask all of you that have had a "Hollier than thou" attitude that we should all multi task to be better marshals and team players if you have ever tried Specialist marshalling or do you think that marshalling is only about Flag and Incident?

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Ahh but the yellow flags on startline have nothing to do with flaggies and are manned as part of the Pits/Startline Specialists Job

ah yes, the flag point in the pits so you get a full days flagging but you can still also do yellows for startline or green if its right at the back of the grid but that depends on the circuit? i only really do donington pits now and again.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

I guess Monty Python is something that has passed you by.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

ah, quite literally, ive never knowingly seen anything monty python before

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

2 Flaggies and 2 people doing flag to get upgrades. Now the 2 on flag upgrade realised quite quickly that 4 people is too many for a flag point and so volunteered to rotate and help with incident which was appreciated. But when the PC asked the 2 regular flaggies to do the same so that he could partner each with a specific trainee so that the could mentor them on a 1-1 basis the reply he got was "It's not my job to do incident".

and all i have to say to that is absolutely disgusting, what an attitude to have, i hope the PC kicked up a fuss...

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

ah yes, the flag point in the pits so you get a full days flagging but you can still also do yellows for startline or green if its right at the back of the grid but that depends on the circuit? i only really do donington pits now and again.

The only circuit I can think of that has a flag point in the pits is Silverstone, we certainly don't have one at Donington where all flags on startline are done by specialists. The closest flag points to the pits at Donington are on Post 1 and Post 39. Unless you mean where Chief Startline stands with the black flag, chequered etc, but again on most occassions that is a specialists role not a flaggies.

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

and all i have to say to that is absolutely disgusting, what an attitude to have, i hope the PC kicked up a fuss...

The 2 flaggies in question came as a "Team" and didn't even attempt to integrate with either the Incident team or even the PC and trainee flaggies. By the lunch time both the PC and I had simple had all we could take of their bad attitude and so after a consulation we had them separated and moved 1 to another post where apparently he refused to speak to anyone all day.

[fazza]

Originally Posted by Ubique

The only circuit I can think of that has a flag point in the pits is Silverstone, we certainly don't have one at Donington where all flags on startline are done by specialists. The closest flag points to the pits at Donington are on Post 1 and Post 39. Unless you mean where Chief Startline stands with the black flag, chequered etc, but again on most occassions that is a specialists role not a flaggies.

Oulton Park has a flag point in the pit lane just before the start finish line as deer leap to old hall in is to far and the start line do not use the yellw apart from safety car

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by fazza

Oulton Park has a flag point in the pit lane just before the start finish line as deer leap to old hall in is to far and the start line do not use the yellw apart from safety car

I must say I hadn't noticed it at the BTCC meeting which is the only time I've worked the Oulton Pits but then again I was too busy on the weighbridge and doing startline to notice many things that weekend.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Now as I also said earlier I'm not anti multi tasking and even though I hate flagging with a passion I will do it when needed, but like Woolley said Flagging should not be part of the upgrade for incident.

it shouldnt not be but it has its own advantages, imagine 2 routes to upgrade from trainee flag to flag marshal and same with incident, what would happen hypothetically if you had a meeting were 70 flag only marshals were to turn up and 1 incident marshal, would the flag only guys be willing to change over for the day, with say spending 5 or so years "specialising" in flag, im sure with some people who though they "worked their way up" in flag and do flag or do nothing would rather see a meeting cancelled than chop and change if there was 2 seperate grading systems,

itd be an excuse to not multitask whatsoever, the people who hate flagging would be on one side, same with people who dislike incident...

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

The only circuit I can think of that has a flag point in the pits is Silverstone, we certainly don't have one at Donington where all flags on startline are done by specialists. The closest flag points to the pits at Donington are on Post 1 and Post 39. Unless you mean where Chief Startline stands with the black flag, chequered etc, but again on most occassions that is a specialists role not a flaggies.

say somewhere like oulton has a full flagpoint in the pits, its also a place to do stalling yellows i believe, the armco is the marshals post!

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

it shouldnt not be but it has its own advantages, imagine 2 routes to upgrade from trainee flag to flag marshal and same with incident, what would happen hypothetically if you had a meeting were 70 flag only marshals were to turn up and 1 incident marshal, would the flag only guys be willing to change over for the day, with say spending 5 or so years "specialising" in flag, im sure with some people who though they "worked their way up" in flag and do flag or do nothing would rather see a meeting cancelled than chop and change if there was 2 seperate grading systems,

itd be an excuse to not multitask whatsoever, the people who hate flagging would be on one side, same with people who dislike incident...

Thats why I would prefer to return to the old system where you started out as Trainee and had to qualify as a Course Marshal (Green Badge) before you could choose to stream as a Fire Marshal (Red Badge) or Flag Marshal (Blue Badge). When this was the route for trackside marshals trainees were still encouraged during the course of the day to try a session or 2 on flags so that they understood them but it was not part of their official training for upgrade thus allowing them to learn how to stay safe and do the basics of marshalling. This also had the benefit that ALL Flag Marshals were experienced at Incident Handling (the average time spent as a trainee was 2 years although that depended on amount of meetings and availability of Examining Observers) and could if needed help out. Now there is absolutely no way to tell if a marshal is experienced at incident handling and I have come across Red Badges with no more that 20 days in their entire marshalling career on Incident.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

The 2 flaggies in question came as a "Team" and didn't even attempt to integrate with either the Incident team or even the PC and trainee flaggies. By the lunch time both the PC and I had simple had all we could take of their bad attitude and so after a consulation we had them separated and moved 1 to another post where apparently he refused to speak to anyone all day.

bwhahahahaha
most marshalling teams or people who are bessie mates ive come across talk to the others on post and mix very well but because ive done quite a lot of events this year ive noticed twice pairs of very ignorant marshals who either dont have enough social skills to mix with "these weird new people" from all walks of life or they just are generally ignorant. thankfully its easy to tell when this is the case, i test the water ask a few questions and if i get nowt, we take things from there!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by fazza

Oulton Park has a flag point in the pit lane just before the start finish line as deer leap to old hall in is to far and the start line do not use the yellw apart from safety car

beat me to it, i usually read all posts before i type my mutterings!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

I must say I hadn't noticed it at the BTCC meeting which is the only time I've worked the Oulton Pits but then again I was too busy on the weighbridge and doing startline to notice many things that weekend.

same here not neccesarily pits but although im mainly a flaggie, but do pits though i couldnt tell you for certain which pit lane marshals posts there is or what duties they have to do at start of a race even from layout of the course to the post...

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

say somewhere like oulton has a full flagpoint in the pits, its also a place to do stalling yellows i believe, the armco is the marshals post!

Now I hope that your not trying to say that Specialist Marshals are not Marshals?

The reason that stalling yellows are manned by startline is that when gridding the cars up if there are enough startline marshals you will be given a specific row (or more than 1 row when short of marshals), once your car has taken its grid slot your supposed to show the driver where on the armco or pitwall you will be to help guide them into the correct position after the green flag lap. You then stay in that position until the race begins and only the marshal directly opposite the stalled car should ever show the yellow flag as when like we see at certain F1 races everyone on the pitwall waves their yellow flag for a staller it makes it so much harder for the race director to know what is actually hapening.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ubique

2 Flaggies and 2 people doing flag to get upgrades. Now the 2 on flag upgrade realised quite quickly that 4 people is too many for a flag point and so volunteered to rotate and help with incident which was appreciated. But when the PC asked the 2 regular flaggies to do the same so that he could partner each with a specific trainee so that the could mentor them on a 1-1 basis the reply he got was "It's not my job to do incident".

I wouldn't put it that way myself, but I do find it incredibly frustrating when too many flaggies are allocated to a post.

The lack of incident in the above makes it different, but when there are plenty of incident and this happens you are expected to stand down half the time. I don't drive a 300+ mile round trip to spend half the time stood down, spectating. If I wanted to do that, I'd buy a ticket!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Now there is absolutely no way to tell if a marshal is experienced at incident handling and I have come across Red Badges with no more that 20 days in their entire marshalling career on Incident.

well at least thats more experienced than the red badges with 20 days exp full stop! now that i upgraded to green in a year, i will be staying on green for a few years... say 3 at the very least as red is the first grade where it seems you have to know almost everything about marshalling up to that point, be in charge of people more, make no mistakes or very minor ones and you wouldnt be able to put mistakes down to not knowing or not being told... am i right?

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Now I hope that your not trying to say that Specialist Marshals are not Marshals?

im not going to take the bait!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

The lack of incident in the above makes it different, but when there are plenty of incident and this happens you are expected to stand down half the time. I don't drive a 300+ mile round trip to spend half the time stood down, spectating. If I wanted to do that, I'd buy a ticket!

just think what its like for the big assembly crews!

its not as bad as a 300+mile trip and a ticket ontop that most spectators have to pay! and after all show some marshals a seat and theyll rip your hands off! its not all that bad, is it...

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

well at least thats more experienced than the red badges with 20 days exp full stop! now that i upgraded to green in a year, i will be staying on green for a few years... say 3 at the very least as red is the first grade where it seems you have to know almost everything about marshalling up to that point, be in charge of people more, make no mistakes or very minor ones and you wouldnt be able to put mistakes down to not knowing or not being told... am i right?

It's so refreshing to hear that attitude and not have someone trying to upgrade as soon as possible! I think the key point of a Red Badge is in the name "Experienced". As an IO I expect my red badges to be able to look after part of the team with some level of autonomy and don't expect to have to tell them how to do everything. Where possible I always try to pair a trainee with a red badge although sometimes you have to use a green badge for this albeit only green badges that I have judged to be competent to pass their knowledge on. As a red badge you should be experienced enough to become acting IO when there isn't a qualified IO on your post and will be expected to have sufficient knowledge of marshalling to not be a liability to either yourself or the rest of your team. Therefore taking your time and not upgrading is definitely a good idea because you don't want to get to a point where your grade is higher than your ability.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

It's so refreshing to hear that attitude and not have someone trying to upgrade as soon as possible! I think the key point of a Red Badge is in the name "Experienced". As an IO I expect my red badges to be able to look after part of the team with some level of autonomy and don't expect to have to tell them how to do everything. Where possible I always try to pair a trainee with a red badge although sometimes you have to use a green badge for this albeit only green badges that I have judged to be competent to pass their knowledge on. As a red badge you should be experienced enough to become acting IO when there isn't a qualified IO on your post and will be expected to have sufficient knowledge of marshalling to not be a liability to either yourself or the rest of your team. Therefore taking your time and not upgrading is definitely a good idea because you don't want to get to a point where your grade is higher than your ability.

!

[exflagman]

Is this the same NewYankee01 who has allegedly spent the whole year flagging and appears to be trying to volunteer do flag at the GP and all over the continent?

[mattt]

as an experienced specialist pits/startline

ive now this season started doing a few meetings out on the bank to "add another string to the bow", on my first day i rotated around flag and incident.
a few meetings later i did pit exit at Rockingham from where your operating repeat chequer, normal flag point aswell as the pit exit lights - the few sessions i spent out on the bank flagging gave me the confidence to blue flag from the pit exit.

my last two meetings out on the bank ive only been doing the incident part of it but whilst i was doing it i was watching to see where i would've blue flagged and seeing whether the flaggie did.

ive found it very interesting talking to mostly incident marshals and hearing what there opinions of pits/startline is, is a very interesting experience and i try to make the differing point of view and try to suggest they try it a couple of times.

i think it is very important for people to have experience of all the areas of marshalling; incident, flagging and specialist roles. over the next few years i plan to keep doing 12 days of pits/startline whilst also doing incident/flag to hopefully upgrade at some pt in a couple of years.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Is this the same NewYankee01 who has allegedly spent the whole year flagging and appears to be trying to volunteer do flag at the GP and all over the continent?

why, it certainly is. meaning what exactly?