[Tech Issue] 2011 Pirelli tyres

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

They produce the crappiest road tires in the world, so it would be logical for them to do the same in F1.
So you've got to give props to Pirelli for staying true to themselves.

[Spritle]

Tell me again why we got rid of fuels stops?

Wasn't it something about passing in the pits instead of on the track.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Tell me again why we got rid of fuels stops?

Wasn't it something about passing in the pits instead of on the track.

Yes, but back then, everyone stopped at the same time because of the limited amount of fuel you were able to carry in your tank coupled to the optimum amount of time that the tyres would give their best performance. It was a series of sprint races that invariably had all of the cars stopping for tyres and fuel within a few laps of each other. It had become too predictable.

Now that there is no need to stop for fuel, it's possible for the teams and drivers to be more imaginative with strategies or at least it would have been if Bridgestone's tyres hadn't been made from solid steel.

If Pirelli have made tyres with a bigger gap between compounds, and with degradation to match. Then it allows for more options of strategy during a race, rather than just going the boring 'no-brainer' route, as in 2010.

[TF110]

Mandate a fuel level, give everyone equal fuel in qualifying. Then let them go all out. Everyone starts on such and such amount of fuel, their choice. Pit stops ensue. They didn't need to get rid of refueling, it was pointless because they still stop for tires. If they wanted to keep everyone on a low fuel run for qualifying, let them have a set sized tank and fill er up before the race.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by TF110

Mandate a fuel level, give everyone equal fuel in qualifying. Then let them go all out. Everyone starts on such and such amount of fuel, their choice. Pit stops ensue. They didn't need to get rid of refueling, it was pointless because they still stop for tires. If they wanted to keep everyone on a low fuel run for qualifying, let them have a set sized tank and fill er up before the race.

With the greatest respect I think you are missing the point, or at least part of it:

Fuel stops - predictable timing and lap time changes as the fuel load lightens, discourages overtaking on the track and makes it a race between the engineers and the pit crews not the drivers

No stops - you can't overtake in the pits so you have to at least try on the track but it doesn't make it any easier

Non Mandatory tyre stops but no refuelling - provided a real choice of tyres is available pit stops are unpredictable both in number and timing, cars vary in performance in different ways as the race progresses. Drivers have to overtake on the track to win and what's more they are more likely to be able to do so, add to that the drama of unpredictable stops and F1 could get much more interesting.

[Marbot]

Paul Hembrey of Pirelli said this afternoon, at the Valencia test:

Fan twittered: "How do you balance the fans' wishes to have tyres that don't last so long with teams and drivers who want the opposite?"

PH: "It depends what the sport wants, ultimately. We were asked by the teams, the drivers and the sport to create some variation and that's what we've done. If they don't want it, we will make a tyre that lasts all weekend!"

Fan twittered: "I'm happy that there will be a bigger variation in tyre degradation, but are you worried that Pirelli will get bad headlines as a result?"

PH: "We could make a tyre that lasts all weekend and then they can say what a boring race it is. Everybody said they loved Canada last year, so we will try to bring that into the show. If people want to say that Pirelli can't make stable tyres, we will put tyres on that last the whole weekend, which we can do.

We can deliver whatever the sport wants. We're trying to bring something to the sport, make it more exciting and we believe that we are going to deliver what the sport has asked for."

[Marbot]

At least someone is happy:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89277

[RF_Racer]

They dregrade pretty fast..

Schumachers Stint..

66 ----
67 1:20.698
68 1:15.756 -4.942
69 1:15.840 +0.084
70 1:16.113 +0.273
71 1:15.914 -0.199
72 1:16.101 +0.187
73 1:16.168 +0.067
74 1:16.156 -0.012
75 1:16.398 +0.242
76 1:16.085 -0.313
77 1:16.231 +0.146
78 1:16.669 +0.438
79 1:16.573 -0.096
80 1:16.930 +0.357
81 1:16.725 -0.205
82 1:17.680 +0.955
83 1:16.728 -0.952
84 1:16.700 -0.028
85 1:17.461 +0.761
86 1:17.903 +0.442

[TF110]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

They dregrade pretty fast..

Schumachers Stint..

66 ----
67 1:20.698
68 1:15.756 -4.942
69 1:15.840 +0.084
70 1:16.113 +0.273
71 1:15.914 -0.199
72 1:16.101 +0.187
73 1:16.168 +0.067
74 1:16.156 -0.012
75 1:16.398 +0.242
76 1:16.085 -0.313
77 1:16.231 +0.146
78 1:16.669 +0.438
79 1:16.573 -0.096
80 1:16.930 +0.357
81 1:16.725 -0.205
82 1:17.680 +0.955
83 1:16.728 -0.952
84 1:16.700 -0.028
85 1:17.461 +0.761
86 1:17.903 +0.442

That could be the hard or medium tires. But look at those times... 16 laps were within a second and a half, Shumacher is a machine.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by TF110

That could be the hard or medium tires. But look at those times... 16 laps were within a second and a half, Shumacher is a machine.

He's The Stig.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by TF110

That could be the hard or medium tires.

They've only used the super-soft, soft and medium compounds at Valencia.

And the fastest lap around Valencia is something like 1.11....

[Marbot]

Did anyone else spot this?

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=42890

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Did anyone else spot this?

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=42890

Are Bridgestone not just one of Schumi's personal sponsors?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Are Bridgestone not just one of Schumi's personal sponsors?

Possibly. That's going to seem a bit odd to some.

It does seem like he still has some links with Bridgestone.

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/vi...ters_at_Japan/

Like this bit:

"Hamashima meanwhile told the eager audience all about Michael Schumacher’s attention for detail when it came to getting the best out of tyre performance and how he had missed many a good restaurant reservation over the years as a result of his long discussions with the driver at the circuit!"

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It isn't the pit stop, but it was so clearly one stop most of last year. Now maybe it is three stops, or look after your tyres and two stops. Does three beat two? Does an aggressive driver on three beat a smooth one on two.

Mexico 1986.

There won't be a repeat of the 1986 Mexican Grand Prix. Not until driver aids banned and the standardization is made undone. Remember that Berger was the only front runner on Pirelli tyres, while the others had to cope with blistering GoodYear tyres. Had Berger been on GoodYear tyres as well, he'd have had the same problem of blistering tyres.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

There won't be a repeat of the 1986 Mexican Grand Prix. Not until driver aids banned and the standardization is made undone. Remember that Berger was the only front runner on Pirelli tyres, while the others had to cope with blistering GoodYear tyres. Had Berger been on GoodYear tyres as well, he'd have had the same problem of blistering tyres.

Thinking back to the 2010 Canadian GP, you wouldn't have thought that everyone was on the same make of tyre during that race!

A lot of it is down to how each car uses its tyres, and a bit of it is down to how the driver manages his tyres. It could be that the HRT does a better job of it than the Ferrari does! Who knows?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The perfect example.

Drivers predict high wear rate, but generally think that it will be a good thing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89259

According to Timm Goss, in this article; http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89288, the tyres last around 10 laps. Is that down to Pirelli wanting to spice the racing up, or down to their lack of experience in tyre development at the top end of open wheel racing? I would think it might be the latter.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

According to Timm Goss, in this article; http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89288, the tyres last around 10 laps. Is that down to Pirelli wanting to spice the racing up, or down to their lack of experience in tyre development at the top end of open wheel racing? I would think it might be the latter.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here BJ.
Some of the photos of the cars on the track also show that the "marbles" off the racing line will take a grader to get rid of.
There is just no way there will be much overtaking with that quantity of marbles off the racing line.
Best they make the tyres that last the whole weekend.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

According to Timm Goss, in this article; http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89288, the tyres last around 10 laps. Is that down to Pirelli wanting to spice the racing up, or down to their lack of experience in tyre development at the top end of open wheel racing? I would think it might be the latter.

Again. Thinking back to the 2010 Canadian GP, I do recall there being marbles off-line.

[TF110]

I've heard this isn't the final variation of tire. And that development work is still being done to finalize them. So we may see them last longer, or degrade less. Or, maybe we won't.

[Marbot]

There may be some "minor modifications" to the tyres, but essentially they will remain as they are. I personally hope that Pirelli stick to their design brief.

I think that what we should realise here is that Pirelli have essentially been asked to make a tyre that is the same as last seasons Bridgestone tyre (no need for changes to suspension etc). They could also have made them have wear and degradation rates that matched almost exactly those of Bridgestones tyres. How "artificial" would that be?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Again. Thinking back to the 2010 Canadian GP, I do recall there being marbles off-line.

Bridgestone did say at the time that the choice of compounds they took to Canada was purely to boost 'entertainment', and nothing to do with anything other than 'spicing up the show'.

All too contrived a reason and open to 'misuse' (I am thinking more FOM/FIA driven influence over Pirelli) if you ask me. ie Championship is a bit one sided, lets influence the current balance of power a bit.

In the same way Red Bull were ones that seemed hardest hit by the tyres at Montreal when B/S deliberately compromised the normal tyre situation.....

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by E.B

Bridgestone did say at the time that the choice of compounds they took to Canada was purely to boost 'entertainment', and nothing to do with anything other than 'spicing up the show'.

All too contrived a reason and open to 'misuse' (I am thinking more FOM/FIA driven influence over Pirelli) if you ask me. ie Championship is a bit one sided, lets influence the current balance of power a bit.

In the same way Red Bull were ones that seemed hardest hit by the tyres at Montreal when B/S deliberately compromised the normal tyre situation.....

Again. Thinking back to the 2005 season, Ferrari claimed that the FIA had introduced the 'one tyre rule' to stem their success rate (and indeed it did). Consequently the one tyre rule was somehow voted out (apparently, the turkey team STR, voted for Christmas) again at the end of the season, much to the dismay of all the teams that beat Ferrari on Michelin tyres.

You can't please everyone can you.

And surely the "normal tyre situation" is whatever you have to work with at the beginning of the practice sessions?

Bridgestone took their medium and super-softs to Montreal and said:

“This will be the first time since 1997 that we will race in Montreal with slick tyres. Previously, we have always found this a difficult circuit for deciding tyre allocations, and this will also be the first time we have raced at this track with a gap between compounds. The circuit’s heavy traction and braking demands mean that a lot of heat is generated in the tyres so drivers need to be vigilant with their tyre management. The track surface can change a lot over the course of the weekend, and the weather in Montreal is often very variable too. I think that these factors will make our visit to Canada a good test for teams, drivers and Bridgestone.”

Quite.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Again. Thinking back to the 2005 season, Ferrari claimed that the FIA had introduced the 'one tyre rule' to stem their success rate (and indeed it did). Consequently the one tyre rule was somehow voted out (apparently, the turkey team STR, voted for Christmas) again at the end of the season, much to the dismay of all the teams that beat Ferrari on Michelin tyres.

You can't please everyone can you.

And surely the "normal tyre situation" is whatever you have to work with at the beginning of the practice sessions?

Bridgestone took their medium and super-softs to Montreal and said:

“This will be the first time since 1997 that we will race in Montreal with slick tyres. Previously, we have always found this a difficult circuit for deciding tyre allocations, and this will also be the first time we have raced at this track with a gap between compounds. The circuit’s heavy traction and braking demands mean that a lot of heat is generated in the tyres so drivers need to be vigilant with their tyre management. The track surface can change a lot over the course of the weekend, and the weather in Montreal is often very variable too. I think that these factors will make our visit to Canada a good test for teams, drivers and Bridgestone.”

Quite.

That rule should never have been voted out.
The FIA is responsible for running the championship and coming up with a set of regulations that works.
Giving teams the right to 'vote' out rules is like putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum. There is too much vested interest to allow them to manipulate the rules package. Ask for their opinions and respect them when they make sense by all means but allowing them to vote on rules designed to restrict them in order to improve the show is a nonsense.

Its the same reason why the overtaking working group cant come up with an aero package that works properly. They all want their aero grip and aero programmes to run.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There may be some "minor modifications" to the tyres, but essentially they will remain as they are. I personally hope that Pirelli stick to their design brief.

I think that what we should realise here is that Pirelli have essentially been asked to make a tyre that is the same as last seasons Bridgestone tyre (no need for changes to suspension etc). They could also have made them have wear and degradation rates that matched almost exactly those of Bridgestones tyres. How "artificial" would that be?

That would have been a bit "artificial" but I think Pirelli have given themselves a fairly steep learning curve by going into F1 and there will be problems, initially, so it'll be interesting to see where they are by the end of the season.