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3 Nov 2023, 01:42 (Ref:4184121) | #101 | ||
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
3 Nov 2023, 12:25 (Ref:4184160) | #102 | ||
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More teams the merrier for us supporters
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5 Nov 2023, 10:23 (Ref:4184532) | #103 | ||
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So... is it an immutable fact that Andretti Autosport won its last Indycar championship in 2012 with Ryan Hunter-Reay? 2012!!
In a spec car and engine on a control tyre, suitably tuned tweaked and twiddled by the team of course. But the components rock up out of a Dallara or a Honda box and no development or building of same is required. And these are the very same people who think they can build a race car in the USA (wonder who designed and manufactured the scale model they apparently have in the wind tunnel..) with all the bells and whistles of technology that the IndyCar team does not need nor have. Its interesting that Mr Andretti reckons the teams think of his bid as coming from some "hillbillies" as in motor racing terms, you could perhaps form an argument to suggest something as disparaging... |
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9 Nov 2023, 22:14 (Ref:4185282) | #104 | ||
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GM only interested in entering F1 with Andretti - going to Las Vegas to lobby FOM. All these public statements and claims are getting beyond tedious (although no doubt some are simply answering questions asked by journalists).
Either FOM will reach commercial terms with Andretti or it won't - no amount of public statements, breast beating etc will change that. If Andretti gets in, then it can say what it wants as often as it likes (& we can critique that as we do with existing teams) but to me it seems that they'd be much better served by showing some public restraint now and professionally working through the negotiation with FOM. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
9 Nov 2023, 23:01 (Ref:4185290) | #105 | ||
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9 Nov 2023, 23:21 (Ref:4185292) | #106 | |||
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
10 Nov 2023, 01:47 (Ref:4185298) | #107 | ||
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No Andretti. no Cadillac?
I'm not surprised. If I was with their board I'd feel the same way. I think the attitude of the teams is appalling. Especially those teams that are off the back of the grid. I did a tally ofn points scoring percentage after Brazil There have been a total of 2142 points ip for grabs in the GPS including Brazil this year. Plus the points for the six sprints (216) bringing to a total of 2358 points. Scores are approximate in that im not going to micro am10,1000 of a point. RBR has scored .365 of all the points or 36.5% of all the points. Mercedes 0.178, just under 18% Ferrari scored 0.169 or just under 17% McLaren have scored 0.13165 or just over 13% AMR scored 0.12184 or just over 12% The top five account for just over 73.5% of all the points, hardly surprising in view of the fact that points only got to 10th place and the five teams account for five cars. Then it falls away rapidly. Alpine scored 0.0504 or barely over 5% Williams 0.01307 or about 1.3% Alpha Tauri is at0.0098, slightly less than 1% Sauber Alfa Romeo is at 0.0074 or 3/4 of 1% Haas is at 0.0056 so just over 1/2 a percent. There has been a lot of slanging off at Andretti over the engineering side of the Indy car operation in so far as a spec chassis and simpler technically etc but it costs a fraction of a F1 team budget to run an Indycar for a season. A F1 team has a spending limit of around $140/150 mill for a season although that's not all the costs but just the ones in meaningful consideration. The real cost is easily 150-200 million a year. But what two of the lesser teams spend making up numbers in rounding the field out to 20 cars would practically pay for the entire 27-28 regular entries for an entire season. You would certainly spend more running the bottom three teams in F1 then all the teams involved in running Indycar for an entire season. But for what? The bottom teams are simply filling out the field. They rarely compete for wins or podiums, and yet their managers are the some of the most vocal in voicing their opinion that they don't want an 11th team! But this is just an exaggerated sense of entitlement. The reality is that they would face another competitor who they fear may surpass them. In which case it would be even harder to score points. And they would lose revenue, a smaller piece of the pie. But how true is it? And how much would they lose? Talk of losing $20 million is wide of the mark. If the current estimates of the profit pool for the teams is true it is possibly $900 million. So each percent is about 9 million give or take some because there is a two list convoluted system for working out the payments. In general, the winning team ends up with about 14% of the pool, the tenth team with about 6%. How would that work out for 11 teams. Probably something like this: (Assuming a pool of 900 million) 1st 14% or $126 million 2nd 12.5% or$112.5 million 3rd 11,0% or $99 million 4th 10% or $90 million 5th 9% or $81 million 6th 8,5% or $76.5 million 7th 8% or $72 million 8th 7.5% or $67.5 million 9th 7% or $63 million 10th 6.5% or $58.5 million 11th 6% or $54 million It is easy to see that if the 11th team got what it is getting under a ten-team spread then it loses nothing. No disadvantage financially at all. If Andretti or another 11th team was last, then the tenth team would be $4,5 million better off! Half a percent is worth 4.5 million while a full percent is worth 9 million. So the amounts of a 20 million difference for lower teams are just speculation and nothing meaningful really. There can't be or there would have to be a pool of $2 billion to spread around and that isn't true at all. The most all the ten teams would lose would be an average of $5.4 million and some teams could actually be better off in the lower end if they were more competitive than Andretti. So why is there even a $200 million fund required? if the lower teams aren't actually worse off, then it is meaningless. If F1 is a meritocracy it is incumbent on the lower teams to lift their game and get on with it. They shouldn't be spending 150 million a year for no real advance in competitiveness, which means someone isn't doing as well as they should be. If it is possible to run an Indycar or a WEC GTP for a fraction of F1's cost, then spending 150 million a year to be a perennial back marker is a waste of money and an inefficient use of capital. Let someone else have a go. But don't sit there and embark on straw man arguments to hold others out from having a go. That is not in the competitive ethos of F1. |
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10 Nov 2023, 10:16 (Ref:4185320) | #108 | |
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^ An excellent post.^
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13 Nov 2023, 05:36 (Ref:4185658) | #109 | ||
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Tripped over this interview with Michael Andretti on the Bloomberg channel on YouTube. Worth watching - only about 25 minutes or so long. Interesting as it is of course put together from an understandably US perspective, where Andretti is a much bigger name and bigger deal than elsewhere.
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
14 Nov 2023, 01:16 (Ref:4185773) | #110 | ||
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How’s the IndyCar deal going, pulling back to 3 cars..
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14 Nov 2023, 15:07 (Ref:4185856) | #111 | ||
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14 Nov 2023, 15:47 (Ref:4185861) | #112 | ||
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And General Motors registers to enter as an F1 engine manufacturer from 2028. See: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...2028/10546412/
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14 Nov 2023, 16:02 (Ref:4185863) | #113 | ||
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thats pretty excellent news and certainly boosts the Andretti bid imo. earlier had criticized GM's potential involvement as simply a badge/branding exercise and, being honest, that for sure clouded my impression of the Andretti bid overall.
this announcement changes that! will of course wait to see what ultimately happens, but for right now, way to step up GM! |
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14 Nov 2023, 18:51 (Ref:4185877) | #114 | |||
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Thanks for that Mike - it’s certainly getting more “real” now! Probably a smart move to bring in the Caddy power unit in 2028 - gives Andretti a couple of seasons to get chassis design/build/tuning under control, with a known power unit before going down the GM route. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
14 Nov 2023, 19:30 (Ref:4185883) | #115 | |||
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I suspect that if you presented a list of famous "family names" that are associated with motorsports, that the average US citizen might list Ferrari first and Andretti would be in the top five and could easily be second or third. Other names (not in F1) that would be in the top five would be something like Ford. Even if you don't care about or follow motorsports, here in the US, you probably recognize the Andretti name and that is it about "racing". Andretti as a brand, in the US, will probably have more name recognition than teams like Williams, McLaren, Audi, Alfa Romeo. Teams like Haas, Alpine, and Alpha Tauri would likely have zero recognition. If anything Alpine would be confused with Japanese Electronics manufacture "Alpine". Ferrari, Aston Martin and Mercedes would be known. Richard |
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14 Nov 2023, 19:47 (Ref:4185888) | #116 | ||
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As far as F1 goes, I expect that only old farts like myself would realise that Mario had won a WDC, because it was so long ago.
I would like to think that the McLaren name still resonates in the States considering they pretty well dominated for a time in Can-Am , only equalled by Lola in the number of championship winning models. |
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14 Nov 2023, 20:35 (Ref:4185901) | #117 | |||
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The article says: ''GM has revealed that development and testing of "prototype technology" has already begun as it envisages using F1 to boost its understanding of electrification, hybridisation, sustainable fuels, high-efficiency internal combustion engines and software.'' I wonder if this is being done in conjunction with Ilmor, who design Chevrolet's IndyCar engine, which has recently under gone further testing of the hybrid assist program at IMS? |
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14 Nov 2023, 21:11 (Ref:4185905) | #118 | ||||
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They'd have to be crazy if they didn't do that. Assuming that Ilmor does the work for GM, we could have the "old" Ilmor (Mercedes-Benz powertrains) and the "new" Ilmor competing against each other - intriguing. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
14 Nov 2023, 22:28 (Ref:4185922) | #119 | ||
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15 Nov 2023, 00:18 (Ref:4185927) | #120 | |||
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Only those alive in 66-72 would remember anything about Can Am and while some enthusiasts may know something of the history of US motorsport unless you were there, the average US citizen has no memory of sports car racing 50 or 60 years ago. |
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15 Nov 2023, 05:31 (Ref:4185942) | #121 | |||
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It’s not a great display of prowess to contract rather than expand is it? Waxing lyrical about why Penske did it, when those cars are not likely fully commercially funded racers doesn’t inspire confidence in being able to run an F1 team likely needing at least $200m a year plus capital plus dilution fee. Or am I missing something |
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15 Nov 2023, 14:59 (Ref:4186011) | #122 | ||
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I mean, sure Andretti would love to be setting the world on fire in Indycar. The same could be said for a number of F1 teams. I mean if we want to pick and choose various statistics, lets look at Ferrari. Last WDC in 2007 and last WCC in 2008. They clearly should just pack it in as they clearly are not getting the job done. Andretti has won Indy 500 as recent as 2017 and the championship in 2012. Clearly Andretti is doing better than Ferrari. Maybe Ferrari should be removed from the F1 championship to make room for a much better organization like Andretti. I say this tongue in cheek, but the point is you can knock anyone about if they are not currently winning. And it ends up being a poor argument for F1 inclusion (or not). I don't follow Indycar much at all, but I think the ability to shrink or grow teams is a fantastic capability within Indycar. If you look at the 2023 season you will see teams running running any number of cars including partial programs. With Andretti on the high side of four full season cars. The flip side of this is lots of pay drivers in those extra cars. From reading the article, it sounds like Andretti has recently been running a pay driver in a fourth car to bring funding to the team. But that is just not going to work for 2024. I suspect they could have run a fourth car all season, but maybe nobody was willing to pay what Andretti wanted/needed? And then you have Penske who is doing well and just just runs three. Maybe four is too many and maybe can distract your team? Maybe moving to three cars is a good thing? I feels like it is just grasping for reasons to knock Andretti. Reasons that can be easily applied to just about anyone but the very tip top of any series. Richard |
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15 Nov 2023, 16:57 (Ref:4186033) | #123 | ||
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but is that the problem, for lack of a better phrase, with promotion?
of course there is no clear ladder in motorsports (despite F1 thinking it is the top of the ladder), there probably still is this expectation that if you are moving to another category, that it should be coming off of very recent and major successes in the category you are moving up from. if it was a Chip Ganassi or Penske (potentially with some of their current drivers even) looking to cross over, would the narrative be different? would the existing F1 teams be able to be as dismissive? *i also dont follow much indy but those are the dominant teams as of late i think? |
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15 Nov 2023, 17:46 (Ref:4186037) | #124 | ||
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In short, if Andretti was doing better in Indycar it would strengthen their position. But I think the initial point that GTRMagic was making was that Andretti moving from four to three cars is maybe an indication of their ability (or inability) to get sponsorship and therefore it puts into question their ability to jump through the financial hoops for F1. My only comment there is that they seem to have shown FIA that they can swing all of this (including the $200M fee). Not to mention they are bringing a huge sponsor (and now engine supplier) to the series. So they seem to be able to get sponsorship. Richard |
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15 Nov 2023, 17:51 (Ref:4186039) | #125 | |
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I am not big on memes, but I saw this on Reddit and for me, it defines the situation for Andretti. That the bar is raised as an excuse to say "no"
What is also rough for Andretti, is even if they get in, there is close to zero chance they will be competitive in the short term. It will take them years to even get to the top of the mid-field if they are even able to do that. But it doesn't make them any less of a competitor like the rest of the F1 field. But people will claim that because Andretti didn't show up and do something magical in their first season, that it proves they were not worthy or something to that effect. Richard (PS: Apologies if the language in the image is overly crude) Last edited by Richard C; 15 Nov 2023 at 18:17. |
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