Max's letter to the teams on the engine tender.

[chunterer]

There will still be possibilities for engineers to develop chassis and lots of other things on the cars no matter what cuts there are in the technology - there always has been such possibilities for enginious people to do things within a set of regulations!

Plus any new F1, standardised or not will still quite easily be the quickest motor racing championship on the planet. Why is everyone so worried??

[Javi]

I guess what defines Formula 1 as the "pinnacle" of motorsport is:
a/ the fastest cars out there over a circuit. formula 1 can not afford to be beaten on that, by an IRL car, GP2 or sportscar.
b/ the level of commercial exposition for a sponsor all over the world, TV impact everywhere
c/ the VIP image, it must be seen as "not for every driver, not for every sponsor, not for every manufacturer"
d/ the "highly technological-costs image". This was not in the 70´s, the era of hewland boxes, DFV engines and customer cars. This is an 80´s-90´s-00´s evolution. But i am not sure Formula 1 can get rid of it now...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Well, what would a spec Formula 1 provide compared to other spec series? Really nothing. In that case there's simply nothing left that justifies Formula 1 existance.

What's the difference between a 100m sprint at a local athletics track and the 100m event at the Olympics ?

That's why F1 will be the ultimate test.

[Oldtony]

Just a tad off with the history davyboy. The foundation for Formula one was the drivers championship but the Constructors championship was introduced in 1956 because the "factories" wanted recognition as well. The first was won by Vanwall and the entrants included Cooper, Ferrari, Maserati, Lotus, Aston Martin etc The championship had been discussed the year before as a way of bringing other major manufacturers into F1 to join Mercedes, but Merc withdrew from racing at the end of the seasom following the Le Mans crash.
The people listed operated businesses to manufacture and sell cars, unlike the garageists of the DFV era, and certainly unlike now when such vehicles would be banned as customer cars.
Maybe a team championship would be justified, but constructors, forget it.
Just exactly what would be left for engineers to develop Chunterer?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

What's the difference between a 100m sprint at a local athletics track and the 100m event at the Olympics ?

That's why F1 will be the ultimate test.

The 100m event at the Olympics to considered to be the match with the best sprinters in the world. But 100m sprinting is something completely different than any motorsport. Motorsport also involves technology. And that counts for the drivers too.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The 100m event at the Olympics to considered to be the match with the best sprinters in the world. But 100m sprinting is something completely different than any motorsport. Motorsport also involves technology. And that counts for the drivers too.

Agreed... but we're debating whether making F1 a spec. formula would detract from its value or its appeal. If its the series where the best drivers in the world battle it out, then I feel the answer is no. From a technical perspective, Formula One today is highly advanced, but there are other forms of motorsports which have arguably more advanced elements. DTM or the LeMans series for instance.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Agreed... but we're debating whether making F1 a spec. formula would detract from its value or its appeal. If its the series where the best drivers in the world battle it out, then I feel the answer is no.

If Formula 1 would become another spec series, just one of many, there would be no big reason for drivers to stay in. Fernando Alonso already said he will considering to leave if the standard engine will come in.

DTM or the LeMans series for instance.

I don't know any more advanced element that DTM has and Formula 1 hasn't.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Fernando Alonso already said he will considering to leave if the standard engine will come in.

He did say that before Honda pulled out! Plus his current team seem to have a different opinion.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I don't know any more advanced element that DTM has and Formula 1 hasn't.

Slick tyres !

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Well, what would a spec Formula 1 provide compared to other spec series? Really nothing. In that case there's simply nothing left that justifies Formula 1 existance.

I wouldn't want a spec F1. I never said that at all. I certainly wasn't meaning that before. That said, even if I were, the same things would still apply.

If F1 were spec, it would justify its existence by its existence. It wouldn't be the same series as it once was, but that doesn't mean it would be invalid for it to exist. You seem to be going with the idea that F1 has some special and distinct status inherent to its being around, which I don't agree with: it is just a racing series like any other.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I wouldn't want a spec F1. I never said that at all. I certainly wasn't meaning that before. That said, even if I were, the same things would still apply.

Have you ever considered a career in politics ?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I wouldn't want a spec F1. I never said that at all. I certainly wasn't meaning that before. That said, even if I were, the same things would still apply.

If F1 were spec, it would justify its existence by its existence. It wouldn't be the same series as it once was, but that doesn't mean it would be invalid for it to exist. You seem to be going with the idea that F1 has some special and distinct status inherent to its being around, which I don't agree with: it is just a racing series like any other.

I tend to agree with Dutton.
F1 is there because historically it is the ultimate prize for drivers (the WDC).
Regardless of the formula of the cars it would continue to have its ultimate prize and that would justify its existence.

If it became totally fouled up and another series grew in stature to the point where the new series was regarded as the ultimate prize for drivers then F1 would lose it reputation and its status amongst followers of the sport and the general public, even if it continued to operate in the other series shadow.

But that could happen regardless of the formula for the cars and the amount of technology they embodied.
In fact it could become so technological that it lost its relevance as a drivers series and another replaced it in importance in both the public and the drivers eyes.

Then it would still lose its status and reputation, regardless of how much technology it embodied. It cannot be there as of right. It has to earn the right to the status, every year.
Thats why when Mansell went to CART Indycar in 1993 the series had a huge following world wide... The series looked as if it could take over from F1 it was so strong.
Then Tony George created a split over the next two years and by 1996 it was on a downhill slide. United they stood, divided they fell.....

[Marbot]

Max defends 'standard engine' and pokes a finger in the eye of Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72422

[duke_toaster]

I largely don't care a monkeys about the rules so long as F1 survives the recession. After the recession, the current technical regulations needs replacing with something that is cheap, to an extent relevant to today's and tomorrow's road cars - as well as the pinnacle of motorsport as far as visible. Most people won't notice active suspension or other electronic gubbins that will never feature largely on road cars for a while and harm the racing itself.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Slick tyres !

Before Formula 1 something to compensate. Any way, slicks will return and they'll be as standard as in DTM, Formula 3, A1GP, IRL, NASCAR, WTCC, etc.

Originally Posted by Dutton

If F1 were spec, it would justify its existence by its existence. It wouldn't be the same series as it once was, but that doesn't mean it would be invalid for it to exist. You seem to be going with the idea that F1 has some special and distinct status inherent to its being around, which I don't agree with: it is just a racing series like any other.

No, Formula 1 has never been a racing series like any other. Formula 1 had something special. For the drivers, crowd, manufactures and other stakeholders. It was widely considered as the ultimate drivers' championship, partly due to its unique, advanced technology.

[Marbot]

Well everyone seems to be happy.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre..._meeting1.aspx

Everyone except Honda that is.

[Dutton]

Any reputation it has/has-had, making it the apparent "pinnacle", is/was gained by virtues of the series' operation/attributes. It is not that the it is magically, inherently, divinely there.

F1 is a motor-racing series with drivers and teams. These drivers and teams prepare on and off track for taking part in race weekends. They travel to specified venues for specified dates, and run according to the formats and regulations set out by its governing body. It is, in essence, absolutely no different to any other racing series. Any special status it may enjoy at any given time would be/is a result of what how it operates, and what not. This is not a function of the fact that F1 exists, but rather a result of how it built itself.

I think we must be getting crossed wires somewhere, for to consider that F1 is somehow inherently imbued with some ethereal quality that makes it distinct and special, if it is such a thing, as opposed to this distinctness and specialness being a product of the way the series functions, well, that just makes no sense.

Anyway, I think we best leave this alone. It is a tad off-topic really, plus it seems clear we aren't going to get anywhere.

[Marbot]

This paragraph is particularly interesting.

"Agreement was reached on measures to meet all the objectives originally put forward by the FIA for 2010 and thereafter in addition to which FOTA have now made proposals for very significant cost saving in 2009 while maintaining Formula One at the pinnacle of motor sport and reinforcing its appeal."

As is this.

"FOTA President Luca di Montezemolo said,"

"The unity of the teams was fundamental to meeting the goals for a new Formula One, but with the same DNA, as requested by the FIA.”

[Teretonga]

Well five teams interested in the deal, (accoring to Autosport half the teams...) would mean that STR, RBR, Renualt, Force India, Williams (?) are interested, leaving Toyota, BMW-Sauber, McLaren-Mercedes, Ferrari all outside the contract if we accept that Honda is gone.

However if Williams is not one of the five teams then is it /Brawn/Honda?
If 'Honda' has noted interest in a deal and is one of the five teams then Williams may be aligned with Toyota. On the other hand Force India may run Mercedes and it is Toyota who is interested in the Cosworth deal.... but that is unlikely..

Or is it Force India and McLaren who make up the five with STR, RBR and Renault... No Mercedes would never do that ....

Or is it RBR, Ferrari, STR, Renault, and Brawn/Honda who are the five....
Now that would be interesting.....
Would Montezemolo do that and badge it FIAT.....or Alfa Romeo?

[Marbot]

All the teams still have until tomorrow to sign up to the 'standard engine' deal.With words like "same DNA" coming out of the FOTAs presidents mouth,who knows who's signed up to what!

[duke_toaster]

Who would have reason for the Cosworth?

McLaren simply won't go for it as they are part owned by Mercedes.
Ferrari are dead against the idea unless Teratonga's lateral thinking is true
BMW are unlikely to go for it, I don't see Dr Mario Theissen going for this oen at all.
Force India have just got the cheque from McLaren-Mercedes. I doubt it.
Toyota could if Tokyo don't like what they see on the balance sheets but they may want to continue.
Renault could go for it if Paris doesn't like the numbers.
RBR are probable because they want to cut costs and don't get much benefit from plodding around with the Renault lump.
STR want to save money so they are likely.
Williams are probably interested (apart from Nakajima/Toyota)
New Honda are a probable - much cheaper than going to whoever.

The five are probably Williams, STR, RBR, New Honda ... and who else?

[Marbot]

There is talk that the teams have come up with an alternative solution to the 'standard engine' proposal.Interesting if true.

[Teretonga]

I actually think this is far more probable.
Just look at Montezemolos comment about the same DNA....

What happens if the manufacturers say that yes they will supply their engines to independents for a sum equivalent or close to the Cosworth deal, say 6 million pounds a year, with a 1.5 million down payment as security.

That means Cosworth do not get a look in but all the others are guaranteed their engines at a similar price
McLaren-Force India
Ferrari-STR,
BMW-? Brawn Honda?
Renault-RBR
Toyota- Williams
This would cover the field for the next two years, keep the outsiders out, enable the manufacturers to keep a lock on the engine supply situation, bolster the fields, and retire old evolutions of their engines....

plus the other cost cutting measures.

Max is essentially pleased because he has got what he wanted: relative parity and a cheap engine supply.
Montezemolo is happy because he didn't get a standard engine enforced and was able to keep the insiders club happy. It is not a big deal and the customers pay for it, or most of it, even if it does cost the manufacturers a little, it is a price they are prepared to pay.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Max defends 'standard engine' and pokes a finger in the eye of Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72422

I think a couple of Max's comments that Honda pulled out "because of falling car sales" - of course the $400m/yr price of being in F1, and more to achieve a creditable result had nothing to do with it...

I think he is absolutely spot on with these comments though: "But what is wrong with Formula One today was wrong before any of the present economic problems cropped up. Essentially it's the rules, which have become ever more restrictive compressing the work of the engineers into an ever smaller area. As such, success in F1 today consists of optimizing every single part of the chassis to the ultimate degree and that is both extremely expensive and utterly pointless." and "It is a symptom of a disease in F1 where incremental change becomes the whole object of the exercise and real serious innovation plays no part."

Teretonga I think you have touched on something that could actually work, effectively the same as what is used in some grass-roots motorsports categories to cap spending. Any engine manufacturer must make their engine available to any other team for the same cost as the Cosworth. After all the real cost in an F1 engine is in the development, not the manufacture. Combine with the common gearbox and regulate the mounting arrangements and it would even be possible for a team to change engines mid-season if it was clear that one had a distinct advantage!

Then look at extending that to the chassis (customer chassis) in some manner.

[Teretonga]

Renault have issued a statement saying they are not interested in the 'standard' engine so is the 'five teams' thing a smoke screen by Max.

And is there another proposal on the table...?

Probably yes.
It seems as though Max may have used the threat to get his way on something else after all....