Petition for a Unified Series

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by BlueStang
I am guessing that was what had Clevelanders in arms...not the league, but the possible change to the course it would have involved.

Nope! I was here, and the subject of an airport configuration never even came up. The moment the IRL was even _hinted_ at, the backlash was enormous.

Liz... Well, we typically get our butts handed to us in soccer, so no, we're not the biggest fans, though many of us followed the last World Cup, where at least we had a snowball's chance in hell. And WRC's explosion in popularity could be a sign of things changing!

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by Jay
Cart isn't F1 though, and shouldn't be. Cart races on a lot of courses F1 doesn't, is extremely fan friendly, should be much much more cost effective for everyone involved, and produce some of the best open-wheel road racing of the pro-series. We should probably have a few (but not too many) ovals for some variety. If every few years one of our guys heads to F1 to become a F1 super star, great!

I, too, think it is different, but I have seen fans who seem to think of it that way, or who seem fine with the idea of BE buying the series and turning it into an F1 feeder. I am not sure that would have been a hot idea. IMHO, it would lose something becoming a feeder.

Lee - So, if CART were to turn it into an oval, you'd not be upset?

[Jay]

The majority of non-racing fans don't know the difference between Cart, IRL and F1. The cars all look very similar to the casual fan. When someone asks me what a Champcar is, I usually say 'Like an F1 car, but North American'. I think that's the sort of discription we shold aim for. As opposed to 'Like and Indycar'. I don't want Cart to become a feeder to F1, but a step to the side. We're never going to be as big as F1, but we can at least offer something different that might attract a up an coming F1 drivers, and current F1 drivers looking for a change.

I'm not sure about Bernie. Most F1 fans hate him, but don't even know what he does or has done. I'm always amazed at what the F1 fans manage to pin on him. That says, he has done tons to raise the profile of F1 over the years...but there's also been disaster such as 'Bernie-vision'...

[Lee Janotta]

Did I say that? If CART did it, there'd be a riot.

[Jay]

I always wondered how you would change that course into an oval... Is anything that only has left hand turns considered an oval?

[Lee Janotta]

CART used the term "modified oval" for a temporary circuit that only turns one way (they ran such configurations at times at both Caesars and the Meadowlands.

I think you give people too little credit, Jay. Most people don't know or care about the difference _except_ in cities where CART races.

[Jay]

Even AT Cart events some people don't know. A good number of people attending the Toronto race don't know the difference between Mario and Michael Andretti, and the questions, "Where's Jacques Villneuve?" or "Where's Michael Schumacher?" is often heard. And the Cart drivers routinely say that the Toronto fans are some of the more knowledgable ones! I think the Montreal fans knew more about Cart actually...

[Lee Janotta]

Yipes!

Then again, a lot of the "fans" walking the paddock at any event are there on corporate passes.

The French Canadians, yeah, they know their racing, I've gotta admit.

[Snrub]

The drivers were saying the same thing about people in Montreal last year too. (that they understand the series,etc) Stands to reason, they have a F1 race there and prominant drivers in both series. I may be wrong, but Quebecers seem to be more into F1 and European stuff then other Canadians.

[Jay]

Yup, they love their racing in Quebec, and before the Montreal Indy, there'd be tons of them making the trip to Toronto! I imagine they still are actually...

Actually Lee, I was referring to the average fan holding a G/A or grandstand ticket.... Another one I remember was "Hey, Michael Jordan's there!".... or "Guy: Let's get in line for Mario Andretti's autograph! ME: It's actually Michael Andretti. Fan: Whatever, same deal." Actually, the great thing about Cart (I think) is the vast majority of people in the Cart paddock just bought the ~$40 tickets to get in. The corporates have their own hospitality areas out of the sun where they can sit in and have all the free drinks and food they want... They'd rather do that then see the cars .

[Liz]

It's not only CART. Lots of people sent e-mails to the broadcast team of the 24 Hours of Daytona asking "Where are the Audis?" The Audi prototypes race in the ALMS and are illegal in the Grand Am who sponsors the Daytona and wouldn't have Audis there as a free gift with a packet of crisps.

[BobbyB]

Originally posted by Liz
Leaving aside the French who are, ahem, unique characters, no other country save the USA has so many people who demand that their own countrymen make up the ENTIRE series and/or dominate it before they will give it their support.

I think you're exaggerating a bit, Liz.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by Jay
I always wondered how you would change that course into an oval... Is anything that only has left hand turns considered an oval?

Here is what I was shown when I asked:

Proposed Cleveland Oval

on edit: It was going to be flat, like Miami and Milwaukee pretty much are.

Lee - no, you didn't say you'd not be upset...I was sure you would be, as I would.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by BlueStang
Here is what I was shown when I asked:

Proposed Cleveland Oval

on edit: It was going to be flat, like Miami and Milwaukee pretty much are.

Lee - no, you didn't say you'd not be upset...I was sure you would be, as I would.

Jeez, that would've sucked as a venue. I have to give them credit for their audacity...

Yup, I think we'd all be upset. Burke just makes a great race track one weekend a year.

[Jay]

Wowsers, thanks BlueStang! Never seen that before...hope I never do again. I wonder what idiot had that idea... My guess is the IRL was offering some kind of incentive. From driving around Burke in GP3, it's a great road course...plenty of runnoff, we'd be a fool to touch it.

[carsten66]

First of all, reading this forum topic is something like reading a thriller – and as a european, some of this american-non-american-writing-staff – sorry – I don't understand. Where is the problem? The splitt between CART and IRL is a (sad) fact, **** happens, it's history and I think there is no realistic way to change that or have a unified series. The door is closed. So let's think about the future, not the past. The "only" question is the right way to go – and in which direction... but who knows? We all have great idears and so many hopes and desires – I'm too – but think about it, we all don't have to take the responsibility.

And second, one of the real big problems at least is money – or better the lack of money and today we have – worldwide – a economically very very difficult time. Not only CART is struggling with that fact.

Third: I'm discovered CART in 1995/96 and since that, CART is absolutely my favourite series: an american based top w o r ld series – with a very special atmosphere, you will never find in the F1. And you can believe me, this is unique. In 2000 we spent some fine days in Toronto and we saw a thrilling Molson Indy. It was great! That's what I mean, these special CART feeling. This feeling you will never see in Europe – and I was on both races on the Eurospeedway – it does not compare! One of the points what CART makes unique – in combination with his pack of talented drivers, different tracks and this kind of turbo charged cars. That's CART and I think that's also the future of CART.

So it's time to focus on that what CART's strength is. On this forum we are all "hardcore" fans, what we are really love and know about these series, that's the staff to promote.

[BlueStang]

Lee and Jay,
I am fairly "oval-centric," but I draw the line at ruining a perfectly good "non-oval" course just to make an oval out of it.

I actually had a dream once about driving on that course. I was running P2 on the last lap, chasing the leader. As we got through the last two turns, I knew he didn't have a chance. Just as I pulled alongside, with the checkered in sight....my boss started talking louder, and I woke up.

[Dov]

http://www.nuvo.net/news/archive/003724.html

[Jay]

Excellent article Dov, my favorite: "The IRL party line from Baghdad Bob (aka Fred Nation) is that the Enron scandal, the Lakers losing, Conseco stock, SARS, the end of Friends and chuckholes on Georgetown Road are responsible for the lack of cars in Gasoline Alley."


Mario's still trying his arse off though, and you have to love him for it. As much as I despise the IRL, there's no doubt that some sort of agreement or resolution would immensly benefit both series. Hopefully TG will fall down the stairs or something. http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_s...me=auto_racing

[Dov]

"Hopefully TG will fall down the stairs or something."

Jay, don't give me any ideas.

[Lee Janotta]

carsten, there are just many of us, Mario apprently included, who don't think open-wheel racing can survive in the states with that door nailed shut.

Yes, Tony George much be removed from the equation somehow. Once that is accomplished, though, we are left with the same situation we've always had here: Open-wheel racing in the US and Canada is divided between two cultures: The road racers and the oval fans. That would be fine, other for the fact that there aren't sufficient resources for one to survive without the other.

The IRL currently looks better _because_ they've sucked in many of the road racing teams and sponsors, as well as two manufacturers. But CART still has the road racing fanbase. For now. Time will tell if they can hold on to it with more and more street courses, and an increasing number of pay drivers. But the IRL's not healthy either, and the American element is being chased out of the series by Japanese money.

Now, there are quite a lot of people here who weren't exposed to CART until Nigel Mansell, Jacques Villeneuve, and Alex Zanardi were the stars. That's fine, but much of the rest of the core support watched before the split, and saw perhaps the greatest years for open-wheel racing in the states, from '79 to the split.

Now, that wasn't an equitable arrangement, but it's the best we've ever had. I think we could make it work again.

For better or worse, each side needs the other just to survive. The IRL needs CART just to put butts in the seats. CART needs the IRL because without the visibility of Indy, the series is starving to death. And honestly, each needs the other as an ego check. Not even NASCAR runs an all-oval schedule, while CART has moved closer to being F1 lite ever year since the early '90s, and is rotting from the inside as a result.

It's become clear that in this war, there can be no winners, only losers.

Okay, maybe the Japanese, a couple Brazilian drivers, and a trio of _really_ greedy and souless team owners win. But that's it!

[Dov]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/armstrong/030403.html

[Lee Janotta]

Man, HARSH article!

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
-Abe Lincoln (no, not the luxury Ford guy)

[Fish_Flake]

Harsh, but true.