Brabham BT21 - Page 5

allenbrown · 18 Jan 2006, 09:13 (Ref:1544280)

Hi guys

I appear to have stuffed up something in my records and would appreciate your advice.

Frank Williams took a Brabham out to Tasman in 1969 for Malcolm Guthrie. I have it in my notes as BT23C/12 with a FVA but I'm told by impeccable sources (Bryan and David) that it was a BT21B. The "FVA" may even turn out to have been a Vegantune twin-cam so I've really made a mess of this one.

Can anyone tell me more about this BT21B? Do we know where it came from or where it went or its chassis number? And was it really a FVA?

Thanks

Allen

David McKinney · 18 Jan 2006, 11:14 (Ref:1544281)

For the benefit of ten-tenthers other than Allen...
Guthrie's Tasman BT21B was c/no 24, fitted with a twincam engine (not an FVA)
Don't know its history before then or immediately after, but it turned up in UK historic racing about ten years ago with Bob Birrell squeezed into its cockpit

allenbrown · 18 Jan 2006, 13:04 (Ref:1544282)

Thanks David.

Steve Wilkinson · 18 Jan 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1544283)

No deja vu!

Ted Walker · 18 Jan 2006, 14:23 (Ref:1544284)

I have the guthrie 21b as chassis 14.Guthrie sold the car to matt spitzley who ran a team with henry ford junior. the car ended up back in ireland in the mid 80s was raced by bob birrell and it now raced by richard kendall.

allenbrown · 18 Jan 2006, 14:33 (Ref:1544285)

Hi Ted

What did he sell it to Spitzley for? Still with its twin cam as a Formula B or did it return to F3 spec?

Interesting that you agree on the Bob Birrell bit but not on its chassis number.

As you're typing again, does that mean the cast is off?

Allen

David McKinney · 18 Jan 2006, 14:33 (Ref:1544286)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

I have the guthrie 21b as chassis 14.

So do I
The Guthrie Tasman BT21B was however 24

allenbrown · 18 Jan 2006, 14:36 (Ref:1544287)

Bryan Miller · 18 Jan 2006, 21:20 (Ref:1544288)

Allen,

Yes it was fitted with a Vegantune Ford Twin-cam , not an FVA , so 0 out of 2 .

Regards Bryan.

allenbrown · 18 Jan 2006, 23:07 (Ref:1544289)

Ted Walker · 19 Jan 2006, 09:42 (Ref:1544290)

David. Done it again !!! YES ITS 24.Im not doing this anymore until Im back with 2 hands.Alan Matt ran it as an FB car just as it came from Guthrie.Yes plaster removed yesterday now in even more pain!!!!!

Bruce Mansell · 21 Jan 2006, 06:30 (Ref:1544291)

I have BT21-49 AM frame #299.
It was sold to Frank Williams (the Sir Frank Williams) ex factory complete with Hewland gearbox but without engine. The ownership from then to around 1975 is what I am after.
It was sold then with Lotus Ford twin cam power FB guise by a race car dealer in the USA. It's history after that is well documented.
Bruce Mansell

IANHEB · 23 Jan 2006, 12:35 (Ref:1544292)

Bruce,
You have me a bit confused,do you own BT21-48 on frame AM 199 and BT21-49 on frame AM 299 ?
Regards,
Ian

edholly · 17 Feb 2006, 09:01 (Ref:1544293)

I am seeking help with the history of a Brabham BT21....AM288

Back in August last year this note was posted on this thread.

"At the Historic Races at Queensland Raceway last week-end, a BT-21C was advertised for sale as:- "1968 Brabham BT21C, ex-Philippe de Lespinay (USA), ex-Russ Baldwin (USA), unwanted restoration project."

Bryan Miller told me of the car and I ended up buying it. I have started on its restoration. Already the frame has had around 60 hours of work on it. It was bent and twisted very badly. It had evidence of some basic repairs at some time. In speaking with Bill Schlossnagel, who worked on the car in Russell Baldwin's ownership, he told me that he had replaced a couple of tubes, but that Russell did not go on with it. He still had a record of the car being in his workshop almost 20 years ago and had recorded a number of BT21C-14 but with the 14 crossed out and a 12 written beside it. However -12 is recorded as belonging to Nereo Dizane and lives here in Australia. Bill doesn't remember where these numbers came from. Russell does remember checking with a Brabham historian in the UK and being told that -12 was a car in existence in Australia

I have spoken with Philippe, Russell and another subsequent owner John Delane. Philippe told me he bought the car around 1984 to remove the gearbox and some other parts and sold the rest on. He said the car was light blue when raced as a single seater in the US and he bought the original bodywork for it in his ownership and that now remains with the car. It came to him as a sports-racer with an ugly yellow and red body, which he threw away. At that time John Hafkenschiel inspected it in Philippe's workshop and recorded that the AM No. was 288 and that it was a BT21-C, there was no chassis plate attached to the car. Philippe bought the car from the Northwest area, and there is a tag on the throttle cable with an instrument company in Portland Oregon on it, which would indicate this. Philippe remembers that it wasn't raced by anyone of great note, in his opinion.

Russell Baldwin did some research on the car that noted previous owners but this now appears to have been lost and Russell doesn't remember any of the details. In 2001 Russell sold the car to John Delane with the help of Jim Hall. After John sold the car, it came here to Australia and I subsequently bought it.

Any help anyone can give with the car's history would be very much appreciated

Ed Holly

Ted Walker · 19 Feb 2006, 08:52 (Ref:1544294)

Sorry Ed I have looked at my list and have no no AM288 listed. Its in the right sequence for a BT21.

allenbrown · 12 Mar 2006, 19:14 (Ref:1545351)

This post marks the point at which the BT21 material in the giant Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 thread was split out and merged with a pre-existing BT21 thread.

Allen

Steve Wilkinson · 13 Mar 2006, 15:24 (Ref:1547200)

The various BT21s that have so far run in the British Sprint Championship can be split into two categories:

a) Chassis Number Identified - BT21C-6 Spencer Elton (1971)/Tim Barrington(1991); BT21A-9 John & Arthur Ravenscroft(1971/72)/Rodger Hartley(1973)

b) Chassis Numbers unknown: David Pullen - BT21B - 1971; Dennis Chorley - BT21B (1976); Les Stone - BT21B - 1978; BT21 - Robin Boucher (1987)

NB the Boucher car was 'on loan'. I wil try to Id who it was owned by.

dirksx1 · 13 Mar 2006, 22:34 (Ref:1547577)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Sorry Ed I have looked at my list and have no no AM288 listed. Its in the right sequence for a BT21.

Gentlemen,

I am new to the forum and am looking for assistance.

I have what I believe is a BT21 frame AM240 which I am in the process starting to restore. Am looking for any info on the history of the car and the original set up (engine configuration etc ) so that I can undertake a proper restoration.

Car purchased In california over 10 years ago and has been in storage since. About time I got started on the restoration and getting it back on the track.

Am located in British Columbia Canada. Can anyone be of assistance

Dirk S
BC Canada

Bryan Miller · 14 Mar 2006, 07:50 (Ref:1547736)

Dirk ,

Welcome , possibly assistance may be available , however with so many of this model Brabham loose in the USA and Canada we really need any information you have available , e.g. do you have a bare frame only , is it damaged , what Mk number Hewland came with the car , and most importantly from whom did you purchase the car and what other information you have , SCCA log books or whatever , also what components do you have as some of this may give a clue to the cars earlier life.
I have info re AM 238 and AM 241 and your number is certainly in the midst of BT21 territory.
Bryan.

dirksx1 · 14 Mar 2006, 08:31 (Ref:1547755)

Bryan,

Thank for the quick response. I would certainly appreciate the help tracing the car history and confirming its original configuration.

The car was last used as a sprint racer in California equipped with an aluminium block V8. Everything was there save for the original engine. We have corrected minor mods made to the frame to accomodate the V8 and have had it totally verified for integrity. We have what I believe was the original transmission. I will get the info transmission and try to find out the last owners name. It was purchased some 15 years ago and has been in a garage since then. Now totally in pieces and ready to get suspension and other critical part verified etc.

We have all the suspension parts, original brabham magnesium wheels, suspension, seat, full tank which we will replace with a new bladder etc etc. Have also locate new fiberglass body parts. We have purchased a lotus twin cam engine which we will get rebuilt once we know more about the original configuration. So looks like we have just about everything we need to start a rebuild.

Used to do some local sport car racing in Montreal (Triumphs) a very long time ago and now am looking forward to get it assembled over the next 6 months and get into vintage racing next year.

I will get as much info as I can gather and respond in hopefully short order.

regards,

Dirk S
Vancouver BC Canada

Ted Walker · 14 Mar 2006, 08:32 (Ref:1547756)

I have a note from Peter Boyd in California from years ago saying he owned a BT21 AM240.We have a Bt21 with AM243 as well over here in he UK.

dirksx1 · 15 Mar 2006, 01:49 (Ref:1549109)

Ted,

Looks like it could be the one one which I now own. Do you have any contact info re Peter Boyd. How old is your info re his ownership of AM 240. Would like to get hold of him if at all possible and find out more about the car.

Vancouver BC Canada

allenbrown · 17 Mar 2006, 10:22 (Ref:1550953)

This is worth cross-posting here from the Unknown Brabhams thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Murray

With refernce to the Peter Speakman [...] 21C referred to competing in the Scottish Hillclimb series I can add the following [...] The BT21C was originally Sir Nick Williamson's. The chassis number escapes me. It had a twin cam and FT200 when he owned it. He sold this in the early 90's to Tim Barrington who still owns it I think [...]

So that's BT21C-6, owned previously by Spencer Elton and Peter Varley.

Allen

LoLola · 21 Mar 2006, 04:29 (Ref:1555453)

This forum is great. I just purchased BT21C-16 out of Seattle. From this thread, I tracked down the past history of the car and one of the first owners. He happened to live about five miles from where I do in San Diego and knows the car well. Looking forward to seeing others on the tracks here on the west coast and at Road America this July.

allenbrown · 21 Mar 2006, 06:46 (Ref:1555475)

Come on then, you know the drill. Who did you buy it from? Who ran it originally? How did you trace it back to the original owner?

We need your piece of the jigsaw put in place so we can fit in the others.

Allen

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