[WEC] The Unified Power Rankings (GTP / Hypercar)

[Adam43]

Hmmm, that doesn’t seem right. I will check later. Thanks

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Makes me wonder how did Acura jump Porsche being a bit slower in the Long Beach race. Is this because of how the combined performance is calculated for both series?

Yep - it was still carrying it's Sebring pace in the calc. Any car that was in WEC or both was fine, but the IMSA only Acura was not. Now fixed.

Thank you

Update:

• Combined via Cadillac, Porsche and BMW. Lamborghini out of it as it didn't do Long Beach.
• Ferrari trajectory has been improving and it hit the front.
• Toyota's relative pace to Ferrari stayed almost exact the same as for Qatar, despite the small BoP changes in Ferrari's favor.
• Cadillac's IMSA performance is dragging it down. It would be almost at Toyota level (but still third).
• The newbies to the series all did worse in Imola.
• Acura slips as it was 0.3% behind the average of the others in IMSA.
• Peugeot look like a new car.

[tomcug]

Thx for the update Ferrari really dominated Imola, now let's see in what way next BOP is adjusted because of that.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Cadillac's IMSA performance is dragging it down. It would be almost at Toyota level (but still third).

Should be WEC performance here.

[Adam43]

Yes! Mistakes everywhere!

[Adam43]

I was surprised at the BoP changes last time. Specifically the Ferrari v Toyota change. Although looking at these numbers it didn’t make a difference to the gap.

Ferrari tested a lot at Imola. Toyota not. So it could still be decent.

Most of the little tweaks got lost in the big Peugeot change as we saw.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Finally again interesting how the Caddys are dominant in IMSA but struggling in WEC for performance

Let's do a little WEC and IMSA Cadillac comparison.

Looking at the average lap times from the most recent events in each. Also using the analysis from the Unified thread. In fact, now I think of it, I'll post this there. Here is the original post I quoted.

WEC
Cadillac are 0.04% (0.03s) slower than the average of the fastest car from BMW, and Porsche.
This put them 0.67% or (0.62s) slower than the fastest car in WEC (Ferrari).

IMSA
Cadillac are 0.32% (0.23s) faster than the average of the fastest car from BMW and Porsche.
This put them 0.27% or (0.20s) faster than the next fastest (Porsche).

Comparison to Porsche and BMW shows they are all pretty close in both, and overall everything is very close. So part of this is that everything is so close a little difference has a big impact, especially in WEC with the bigger field.

What is causing the difference? Potential things.
Comedy theories alert!

A. Difference in BoP between the series? This post here contains the difference between Power/Weight for IMSA and WEC. There is a similar situation in both. There is a small penalty for Cadillac in WEC v. IMSA relative to Porsche (less v. BMW).
Is this down to the approach (possibly) or compensation for the tracks (maybe).

B. Cadillac's commitment to the series. It is clear there is more relative effort in IMSA (relative to their competitors) is higher than WEC. More cars maximizes you getting the best out of it. The analysis above is comparing to the fastest car from any manufacturer. And in WEC that is Caddy's only car. Also how are the current team feeling about it all. It feels like every race is an away race in WEC.

C. Could be the random variations you get race to race, track to track, driver to driver, etc...

My guess is B, but A could be influencing it, and C makes it difficult to draw conclusions!

[Akrapovic]

1 car Caddy team on circuits they don't know as well as the others is bound to hurt. You start off on the back foot, then collect less data than everyone around you.

[Adam43]

Sneaky strong lap times from Alpine in Spa!

[tomcug]

Thanks. Isotta and Lambo are outliers, the only cars over 101%...

[Adam43]

Small changes after Detroit.

[Adam43]

Comedy Rankings.

1. Porsche
In both IMSA and WEC they are doing well, whether Penske or the privateers (Jota). They have numbers, as they often have done down the years.

2. Ferrari
They have the pace, but it hasn't happened. They can blow up in a race (metaphorically) - how can this stereotype seem to continue!? Moaning doesn't help here either. Last year I thought they were quite aggressive in the race with backmarkers and kerbs, but it did them well. And the third car might enable them to continue to be aggressive.

3. Toyota
Pace not quite there, but the drivers and the team are gelling. They should be there come Le Mans

4. Acura
Get a bump up because they have just won.
The next batch could arguably be in any order. Maybe even throw Toyota in to this batch.

5. Alpine
These seems silly in some ways, but they had sneaky at Spa - did that come from no where, or three races in did they find something? I could be very wrong here.

6. BMW
I could have rated them much lower. They just aren't getting it together. Disastrous race at Detroit, but pace was there. Will the 25th anniversary spur them on at Le Mans?

7. Cadillac
7th? Really? Crashes haven't helped, but since the season openers they seem to have slipped. I don't know why, because I can't say I've ever wanted a Caddy, but I 'd love a good result from Caddy.

8. Peugeot
They have to work this car out soon. Surely? Maybe that comes at the same time as the ACO ease off the new car BoP? They are a race behind BMW, Alpine, Lamborghini and Isotta Franschini there.

9. Lamborghini
One car could be the downfall. Spa not good.

10. Isotta Franschini
At Spa got closer to the front that Vanwall ever did. The one car and lack of testing comapred to all the others is always going to hurt them. I assume Peugeot, and the other new ones will definetely get it at some point. Isotta Franschini might just always be playing catch up. Their best hope is that as the car is established the BoP comes off.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sneaky strong lap times from Alpine in Spa!

I definitely noticed that their pace was quite strong at Spa. Surprised their result didn't quite align. I expect to see them factor in at LeMans, if their drivers can hold it together.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Comedy Rankings.

1. Porsche
In both IMSA and WEC they are doing well, whether Penske or the privateers (Jota). They have numbers, as they often have done down the years.

2. Ferrari
They have the pace, but it hasn't happened. They can blow up in a race (metaphorically) - how can this stereotype seem to continue!? Moaning doesn't help here either. Last year I thought they were quite aggressive in the race with backmarkers and kerbs, but it did them well. And the third car might enable them to continue to be aggressive.

3. Toyota
Pace not quite there, but the drivers and the team are gelling. They should be there come Le Mans

4. Acura
Get a bump up because they have just won.
The next batch could arguably be in any order. Maybe even throw Toyota in to this batch.

5. Alpine
These seems silly in some ways, but they had sneaky at Spa - did that come from no where, or three races in did they find something? I could be very wrong here.

6. BMW
I could have rated them much lower. They just aren't getting it together. Disastrous race at Detroit, but pace was there. Will the 25th anniversary spur them on at Le Mans?

7. Cadillac
7th? Really? Crashes haven't helped, but since the season openers they seem to have slipped. I don't know why, because I can't say I've ever wanted a Caddy, but I 'd love a good result from Caddy.

8. Peugeot
They have to work this car out soon. Surely? Maybe that comes at the same time as the ACO ease off the new car BoP? They are a race behind BMW, Alpine, Lamborghini and Isotta Franschini there.

9. Lamborghini
One car could be the downfall. Spa not good.

10. Isotta Franschini
At Spa got closer to the front that Vanwall ever did. The one car and lack of testing comapred to all the others is always going to hurt them. I assume Peugeot, and the other new ones will definetely get it at some point. Isotta Franschini might just always be playing catch up. Their best hope is that as the car is established the BoP comes off.

I would definitely rate Caddy higher, if not just after Toyota.

[Adam43]

Update after Le Mans and Watkins Glen.

Note this also includes a correction to Detroit data - sorry.

[tomcug]

Excellent job, thanks. TOP5 in less than 0.5% clearly shows that BOP works. It's not perfect but works, no way to deny.

[Adam43]

Toyota stole a march on everyone in Sao Paulo.

I think the Isotta Fraschini pace is a little unfair. They went out and lost a chance to nail some quicker laps.

Cadillac is a surprise after Sao Paulo, but there average is helped by Watkins Glen.

Ridiculously close still, but a bigger, albeit still small, gap between the faster and next fastest that we haven't seen since end of last year. Although the Long Beach/Imola weekend was close. Interestingly there it wasn't the fastest Hypercar that won the race at Imola.

[FIRE]

BMW

Pretty painful for the German brand.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by FIRE

BMW

Pretty painful for the German brand.

With no planned upgrades for next season I think they're going to have to learn the setups better or it'll be left behind.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

With no planned upgrades for next season I think they're going to have to learn the setups better or it'll be left behind.

If they are not planning updates for next season, I question how long term the project is. If it was actually long term, they would want to make the investment as early as possible in order to reap the rewards as early as possible. There's no sense delaying updates that you need. There is something insidious with this car. Lots of crashes from the drivers in both WEC and IMSA.

[chernaudi]

To be fair, this is the same BMW that's entered waiver-mobiles dating back to the 2001 M3 GTR (V8 powered with only 5 road cars built before the end of the ALMS season that year), and things like the M3 E92 GT2/GTE, the Z4 V8 GTE, M6 GTLM, and the M8 GTE. All of that because BMW won't develop an actual sports car



I do feel that BMW either relies on waivers or BOP for their sportscar programs, and half-arse the programs as a result, or with earlier efforts mentioned, exploit loopholes to make their cars competitive or dominant.

[flatlandsman]

I also think BMW are the team most likely to quit, that car has not done anything worth a damn, it looks great and the teams running it are good, but it clearly is not a good car and some of the comms team with the right ideas have noticed that it is very tricky to drive on the limit, and that never works in endurance racing.

But, also surely that can not be that hard to fix? It might make it slower, which is probably why it has not been done.

[chernaudi]

Not to mention that the BMW uses the same chassis as the Cadillac, which has seen a lot of success, especially in IMSA (though less in the WEC, though it doesn't help that Ganassi has only run 1 car full time in the WEC and AXR only does LM). Seems that either BMW's suspension or aero isn't up to snuff (in spite of the ACO's and IMSA's homolgation requirements for all teams), or maybe the powertrain (engine) isn't very good, or any combination of the above.


I know that in the WEC that WRT went with BMW because Audi Sport were forced to stiff them because of Audi board/CEO decisions, but they should maybe have bought a Porsche, or maybe browbeat Cadillac or Lamborghini (or maybe even Ferrari or Toyota) into doing a customer car program.

[flatlandsman]

If I was BMW I would be looking at the RLL team aswelll, that car has had reliability issues, Miller is doing a fabulous job in GT, doubt they have the dough to run a GTP but worth a shot, I don't think you can doubt WRT, they have been superb in most things and it is clear that car is pretty tough to drive!! Maybe the drivers need to be moved around a bit, but in WEC it has never really looked "there", in IMSA they can sometimes get close. So maybe I have it all wrong!!

[S griffin]

I'm sure BMW know what they are doing. They can easily bounce back.

[flatlandsman]

I think the car needs a lot of work, considering the number of cars they run in the US and WEC it has showed a very up and down level, it was quick at times last year in IMSA, and in WEC and maybe LM it showed some pace but most places it is never on the Porsche, Ferrari Toyota pace and behind Alpine and sometimes Caddy and Lambo, for a car that "old! it seems they have hit a ceiling maybe, or as some have said it looks very tricky to drive a bit like 963 initially,

[GT3_Fan]

This will affect power rankings if anybody wants to do this still for 2025

Competing in both Hypercar and GTP

Cadillac
Porsche
BMW
Aston Martin


WEC Only

Alpine
Ferrari
Toyota


IMSA only

Acura
Lamborghini