BTCC 2019 - Knockhill - Rounds 21, 22, 23

[Greem]

Originally Posted by mprmke

On the back of the complaints and cries about the performance of the BMW, which has been by far and away the standout car, with no legitimate reason to "peg it back". To be beaten by some spectacular driving from elsewhere a la Sutton 2017, fair enough, but for someone who has barely even been noticed by anybody all season to even be in contention is a bit of a joke.

Nothing against him and fair play for improving, being clean and churning out a number of solid, but unspectacular results, but that should not a Championship make...

Why not?

Cammish may have been unspectacular (your term), but if he (a) scores points in pretty much every round and (b) manages to finish each race in the points rather than spectacularly in the gravel, then (c) has more points than anyone else at the end of the year - isn't that final bit what it's all about?

[davec]

Originally Posted by mprmke

On the back of the complaints and cries about the performance of the BMW, which has been by far and away the standout car, with no legitimate reason to "peg it back". To be beaten by some spectacular driving from elsewhere a la Sutton 2017, fair enough, but for someone who has barely even been noticed by anybody all season to even be in contention is a bit of a joke.

Nothing against him and fair play for improving, being clean and churning out a number of solid, but unspectacular results, but that should not a Championship make...

Why should it not make a championship?? I thought that the ideas was to get the most points!

Cammish 11 Podiums
Turks 7 Podiums
Jordan 10 Podiums

Seems like Cammish has not exactly been having a bad year in my opinion. People seem to think he is not doing well in BTCC but this is his second year and he is fighting for the championship with the most amount of trophies of all drivers!!!

I don't think that BMW should be criticised any more or less than Cammish!

[crmalcolm]

If Cammish does go on to get the title, or even takes it to the wire, is it not the same type of season Turkington had for his last title?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by mprmke

Nothing against him and fair play for improving, being clean and churning out a number of solid, but unspectacular results, but that should not a Championship make...

A championship should be whoever scores the most points by the end of the year. If Cammish manages to do this by staying out of trouble when others find themselves in it, then that's just smart driving and it deserves a title.

[Northern Monkey]

As Cammish has said himself a number of times, his name hasn't been 'up in lights' like Jordan when it comes to winning races but he has been picking up the points consistently. He's the only driver to have completed every racing lap this season whereas Jordan has taken six wins, but has also missed two races and had six no scores.

[Sodemo]

Under "normal" circumstances yes, however TOCA have implemented restrictions on the BMW this year which are marque specific like the ride height adjustment and lower boost pressure. So if a Honda driver does win it this year, then I think it will be a title somewhat undeserved. The BMW's had a purple patch at the mid point of the year and they were (in my view) unfairly punished for it. Now the rest of the grid is performing "better", the restrictions are still in place on the BMWs. Looking at the speed trap times, the BMWs are rarely in the top 10, so targetting their straight line performance is just an easy win for TOCA.

[Johno.UK]

Always irks me a bit when people trot out the "other teams should build a better car" line.


What were other teams supposed to do about the Subaru? Build a few thousand special cars with boxer engines?


With the BMW if a lot of the advantage is from it's aero then that's a basic function of the body shape which again other teams can't do a lot about especially if they are early on in their own cars cycle.

Costs would go through the roof and the grid numbers would fall like a stone without the equalisation measures in place. There are many arguing that the BMW's haven't been pegged back enough as they still manage to run right at the front with maximum ballast.

As for Dan I don't have an issue with him winning the championship. Turkington and Prialux have managed to win many touring car titles by plugging away and picking up the points without setting the world alight. Consistency is everything in racing. I've seen many a clubman series won by someone who managed to finish 3rd, 4th or 5th in every round while others won a couple before blowing up and missing rounds etc.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Under "normal" circumstances yes, however TOCA have implemented restrictions on the BMW this year which are marque specific like the ride height adjustment

ride height adjustment was part of centre of gravity adjustment for all rear drive cars this year not just the 3 series!

[porsche962fan]

wonder if Cammish will keep that pledge he made to Jordan publicly at Oulton interview that he will race very fair with him

[Alfisti]

Consistency, and winning a championship because of it is a good thing in my books. The example I always trot out is Nelson Piquets last championship in the Williams. He safely and sensibly followed other cars home and had more second place finishes than I've eaten pies. Others like Mansell may have won more but they also failed to finish more. He with the most points wins. Like a football league. Or a pub quiz.

I'd rather see consistency than the lottery that is NASCARs playoff system...

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wonder if Cammish will keep that pledge he made to Jordan publicly at Oulton interview that he will race very fair with him

I can't remember Dan driving anything other than cleanly. My memory is failing, so I could be wrong but he behaves like a choir boy from what I can recollect!

[S griffin]

Dan is hard but fair, only dishing it out when he feels the need to. He has always driven like this. And he's very humble despite being a bit outspoken at times

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Always irks me a bit when people trot out the "other teams should build a better car" line.


What were other teams supposed to do about the Subaru? Build a few thousand special cars with boxer engines?


With the BMW if a lot of the advantage is from it's aero then that's a basic function of the body shape which again other teams can't do a lot about especially if they are early on in their own cars cycle.

Costs would go through the roof and the grid numbers would fall like a stone without the equalisation measures in place. There are many arguing that the BMW's haven't been pegged back enough as they still manage to run right at the front with maximum ballast.

As for Dan I don't have an issue with him winning the championship. Turkington and Prialux have managed to win many touring car titles by plugging away and picking up the points without setting the world alight. Consistency is everything in racing. I've seen many a clubman series won by someone who managed to finish 3rd, 4th or 5th in every round while others won a couple before blowing up and missing rounds etc.

Yet if a Honda qualifies near the front with high ballast it’s somehow “ok”?

I wasn’t aware it was the whole RWD portion of the grid that had been retweaked in terms of ride height.

[Maxpower1]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Yet if a Honda qualifies near the front with high ballast it’s somehow “ok”?

I wasn’t aware it was the whole RWD portion of the grid that had been retweaked in terms of ride height.

I can't remember the round, think it may have been snett, all Rwd cars where given the option of either a weight increase or minimum ride height increase. I was also told that all Swindon powered cars where given a slight tweak of boost at the same time.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I wasn’t aware it was the whole RWD portion of the grid that had been retweaked in terms of ride height.

every model of rear drive car had their cente of gravity tweaked when the infinity appeared

they could either take extra ballast on their bulkhead or increase their ride height. their choice

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

every model of rear drive car had their cente of gravity tweaked when the infinity appeared

they could either take extra ballast on their bulkhead or increase their ride height. their choice

Genuine question - what difference would centre of gravity make on a RWD car? I understand with the Subaru it's a bit different as the engine is so low and far back but the BMWs and Infiniti don't have this advantage?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Genuine question - what difference would centre of gravity make on a RWD car? I understand with the Subaru it's a bit different as the engine is so low and far back but the BMWs and Infiniti don't have this advantage?

centre of gravity adjustment is made to equalise all rear drive cars with the lower and better centre of gravity of the subaru so that they are all equal

front drive cars dont need to be equalised with each other because all their engines are transverse inline fours so all share the same basic layout and position

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Yet if a Honda qualifies near the front with high ballast it’s somehow “ok”?

Just repeating the sentiment that a lot of people have on social media. Doesn't mean I agree 100% but I must admit I don't remember Hondas being able to qualify and run as well as the BMW's do with maximum ballast.

It's always going to be a tricky subject with cars making their lap times in different ways.

[Sodemo]

Is the COG of the Infinity and BMW really that much better than any of the FWD cars?

I can appreciate the Subaru is a different kettle of fish all together with its weird engine layout.

[thlbtcc]

I always say this somewhere on this forum each season, but those drivers within 40 points of the lead after Knockhill are the only ones with an actual championship chance. Two Hondas, two BMWs, should be fun.

Special shout-out to Cook in a new car, new team and skipping the mid-season test to be in contention still.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Is the COG of the Infinity and BMW really that much better than any of the FWD cars?

I can appreciate the Subaru is a different kettle of fish all together with its weird engine layout.

This was my point.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Is the COG of the Infinity and BMW really that much better than any of the FWD cars?

I can appreciate the Subaru is a different kettle of fish all together with its weird engine layout.

you must have missed my point. they dont balance the CoG between rear drive to front drive cars. they only balance the CoG between the rear drive cars because of the weird subaru layout so as to make sure all rear drive cars CoG are much the same.

they dont need to do that amongst front drive cars because all the front drive cars layouts and CoG are much the same.

[S griffin]

Yeah, I don't see much balancing out. They needed to do that with the Scooby, due to it's weight distribution I think. But it's good all the FWD drive cars have roughly the same part

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mprmke

Nothing against him and fair play for improving, being clean and churning out a number of solid, but unspectacular results, but that should not a Championship make...

So let me see if I am understanding this correctly?

A driver with multiple championships in other series', is signed to the BTCC by one of the most successful teams of all time.
Learns his BTCC-craft alongside a multiple BTCC champion, whilst developing a new car to the grid.
After a few struggles early season takes 11 podiums out of 18, yet winning the title would still be farcical?

He's already got more podiums than Turkington did in all of 2018 - how more spectacular does he need to be? Does a driver have to have the title sewn up by the end of August to be worthy?

[Alfisti]

If Cam wins he is more than worthy. Hell, if he crashes out of every remaining race he's still done spectacularly well.

He's adapted to BTCC. He's adapted to FWD. He's helped developed a machine that is a tricky so and so/ less good a car than what Sheds and Matt conquered in.

I had my doubts about him last year as he seemed to be unable to adapt. He has so changed my perception this year. Ditto Cookie, I seriously doubted him after the shambolic seasons in genuinely badly prepared machinery. He has without doubt showed he can compete with anyone at this level.

Cookie and Cam are championship winning material, full stop.