FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[pierresfrogeye]

Hi All...I have a quey i have recently purchased a car which can be seen on www.cyberspot.co.uk . It is my understanding that the car was taking part in various Hillclimbs and sprint in teh 60's and that the driver took part in the european hillclimb championship at Ollon Villars (I am still to get the year comfirmed....). Anyhow i assume that this would be an FIA event. Does this mean i can apply for FIA race paper and if yes can you poiny / direct me on how to do this ?. This probably would be usefull to many as the car was a sprite with a GRP bodywork.

any help appreciated,

[Jeremy Hall]

You need to establish the status of the Hillclimb.Was it an International,and that can be established by the date and venue being recorded in the FIA calendar for the year in question.
I have a complete 60's list so post the date and I'll let you know.

[john ruston]

Sure this has been asked before.

I have several sets of HTP's.

When I bought them I was told they would be good for 10 years.

I am now told that the papers are good for 5 years.

Was I improperly sold the original papers and do I get a belated rebate or are they 10 years as sold and I revert to 5 year papers when those original ones need replacing after 10 years are up.

Am at present involved in doing the papers for other cars and can confirm that I cannot fathom the MSA's attitude and lack of organisation to the preparation of these papers.
We are customers and should be treated as such.This is not the case.

[Peter Mallett]

I doubt that there is any implied warranty on homologation certs. Anyway surely if the car is no longer produced they can't lapse can they? I agree though the service and quality of product is pretty dire. £45.00 for six xerexed pages os a bit steep.

[john ruston]

It costs much more than 45 Quid for set of HTP's

[Peter Mallett]

Actually you may be right, I was only talking about one. But that may have cost more, I can't remember.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Sure this has been asked before.

I have several sets of HTP's.

When I bought them I was told they would be good for 10 years.

I am now told that the papers are good for 5 years.

Was I improperly sold the original papers and do I get a belated rebate or are they 10 years as sold and I revert to 5 year papers when those original ones need replacing after 10 years are up.

Am at present involved in doing the papers for other cars and can confirm that I cannot fathom the MSA's attitude and lack of organisation to the preparation of these papers.
We are customers and should be treated as such.This is not the case.

After a five year fight to get them on a customers car John,I have to agree with you.!
The five year thing has more than likely been implemented because of the amount of 'modernisation' that gets performed on the cars.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry John it was early in the morning. I was thinking homologation certs as per the thread title. Yes HTPs only last five years now.

[john ruston]

Does anyone know the actual answer to the question?

Is a set of HTP's sold by MSA as being valid for 10 years still legal from year 6 to 10 .
Secondary question ,if not why not.Do I get the money back as misrepresentation if they become invalid.

[john ruston]

Just seen the comment that the new ones are 5 years.Am aware of that but what about those issued before that and given 10 year life.How can they be invalid.That's what a commercial organisation sold to me!The same commercial operation cannot change the terms on what it sold .
Are we in the position where the normal conditions of trade do not apply .

Rogue traders here we come!

[morninggents]

John, do you still have the paperwork that related to the HTPs when you acquired them - invoice from MSA etc, and the description of what they were, timespan, etc. These would be part of the contract between you and MSA and those terms will still be valid.

[john ruston]

I understand all that.
If we submit papers that are 6/8 years old with an entry for FIA race in Europe will be accepted?These papers were purchased in good faith with 10 year life from FIA's people.

Some one on here should know the answer.

[Peter Mallett]

John,

Jeremy Hall explained it in another thread (I think). I will try to find the relevant posts but a bit busy atm.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I understand all that.
If we submit papers that are 6/8 years old with an entry for FIA race in Europe will be accepted?These papers were purchased in good faith with 10 year life from FIA's people.

Some one on here should know the answer.

I could be wrong but I think this new money making scam only apply's to new sets of papers John,as in papers granted this year. Hopefully uncle Jezzer will correct me if I misunderstood what I have been told.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Sure this has been asked before.

I have several sets of HTP's.

When I bought them I was told they would be good for 10 years.

I am now told that the papers are good for 5 years.

Was I improperly sold the original papers and do I get a belated rebate or are they 10 years as sold and I revert to 5 year papers when those original ones need replacing after 10 years are up.

Am at present involved in doing the papers for other cars and can confirm that I cannot fathom the MSA's attitude and lack of organisation to the preparation of these papers.
We are customers and should be treated as such.This is not the case.

When you bought them John you were told they were good for ever-well 25 years or so.
As far as the MSA are concerned they still should be but the FIA Historic Motor Sport Commission decided to time life them for 5 years as of 1st January 2011.
The FIA will tell you that the money is to fund a ''knowlege centre''-I know how you are gagging for that!
Whether all organisers will demand that our papaers are in date after 1.1.2016 we shall see.

[terence]

Have already heard that excuse,thought it a really good idea,now if an iffy car is presented,the inspector just needs to look up on the 'knowledge centre' to find out whats wrong with the car.

[pierresfrogeye]

Hi Jeremy, the date my chaps race the mont Ventoux was the 18th of June 1967 which i beleive was one of the race part of the EHC ...any help is appreciated...

[simon drabble]

Papers are a snapshot in time so the day after inspection the car could get changed. In which case it matters not a jolt if the car is inspected yearly or every decade. It merely keeps an MSA bod in gainful emplyment.
If this is a simple revenue raising exercise would it not be simpler to just place a small annual fee to have your car registered with FIA?

[john ruston]

A Question.

We have just purchased another car.

We have checked the displacement and scratched our heads.

What actual oversize is legally permitted for Pre 50 cars under FIA rules?

We have been told +5% or 2 mm overbore.What is it.

[rogerwills]

I thought it was 60 thou maximum overbore.

[one-two]

John, I don't claim to be an expert in App K contents and interpretation, but here are some sections that may be relevant. (There is a new version of App K in effect from today, but these sections haven't changed.) Best, Robert

6.4 Engine
6.4.1 The engine components and ancillaries must be of period specification, must be of the same make, model and type fitted and conform to a manufacturer’s specification for which period evidence exists.
6.4.2 The bore of the engine must not be increased by more than the period specification, except in case of cars of Period A to D for which bore may be increased up to 5%. This operation may be carried out only if it respects the capacity limits of the formula to which the car belongs (see Appendix I).
6.4.3 Engines which were less than the upper capacity limit in period may not be enlarged beyond the swept volume employed during the car’s international life.
6.4.4 Only cars originally fitted with DFY engines may utilise DFY-derived engines. Cars fitted with Cosworth DFV engine may use any Cosworth DFV-derived engine component.
6.4.5 The stroke may not be altered from a dimension shown in a period specification.
6.4.6 Crankshafts, connecting rods, pistons and bearings may be of larger dimensions than the period specification, within the limits of the standard crankcase. They must be made from the same material type. The method of construction is free.

[Jeremy Hall]

Hmm good point/question here.
The fundamentalists at the FIA will say that in the case of many cars because they did not run an overbore in period-there being no need on a brand new engine- that there is no overbore permitted.
I know for a fact that a recent FJ application with a FIAT engine over bored within the limits of the rules and the class was refused on the above grounds.The fact that the block is 50 years old and irreplaceable was not considered as factor

[terence]

There's always re-sleeving as an alternative.

[chiken george]

Dear all member,I am new in tenths and an absolute beginner with computer and last but not least, not english spoken... So be nice and do not shoot me down to day...My presence on this forum is a little bit intrested...I try to be an "historic" driver and I need help concerning htp for a TVR griffith 200 . French federation tells me that 200 griffith must have rear lights as cortina because homolog. form shows these rear lights, but everybody knows that it is not the case. FFSA says that I must furnish photos of 200 showing these lights(not the cortina) in action in period races (1965 1966)Does it existsuch racing photos showing rear of griffith 200 racing or does it exist an other way to do?

[terence]

Hi George and welcome to the forum. There is only one photo of a Griff in period,as far as i know. Unfortunatly it show's the car 'face on'. What rear lights do you have?