Ferrari P1 Rumours

[Maelochs]

The aero used in F1 and P1 is pretty much useless in road-going cars except supercars. F1 and P1 cars need to operate in high turbulence at extreme air speeds that no street car would experience unless caught in an F5 tornado, and most road cars want to lessen drag, not increase downforce.

Aero is incredibly important in both series, but not transferable.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by The Badger

From what I understand , Porsche owns the controlling interest of VAG .

Porsche the manufacturer (AG), not the holding group (SE).

[The Badger]

In percent of subscribed capital as of 31 December 2012:


Percentage

Shareholder name

32.2% Porsche Automobil Holding SE
25.0% Foreign institutional investors
16.4% Qatar Holding LLC
12.7% State of Lower Saxony
9.4% Private shareholders / others
2.8% German institutional investors
1.5% Porsche Holding GmbH, Salzburg




In percent of current voting rights as of 31 December 2012:


Percentage

Shareholder name


50.73% Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart
20.00% State of Lower Saxony, Hanover
17.00% Qatar Holding
2.37% Porsche GmbH, Salzburg
9.90% Others

[avvelenamento]

Using different parts, with different shapes, the aero is not directly transferable from f1 to p1. But the aero concept behind can be. Redbull racing found a way to maximize the effects of blowing exhaust on a f1? audi did the same, different ways but same concept.

[TRuss]

Race car aero in general has little to do with road going automobiles. Even super cars with all of their active bits.

[Articus]

The current Toyota Tacoma and the 2014 Tundra have vortex generators to reduce drag on the mirrors and tail lights. The Audi R18 also has vortex generators in its diffuser(so so many of the Protos) and so does the Audi A4 DTM. Many more low end cars have rear end diffusers. The Toyota Prius has a rear diffuser. Supercars use wings, underbody front and rear diffusers, air dams, vortex generators, active aero.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

However I need you all to remember we are speculating about the nothingness.

Remembering if course that this is just your opinion......

[avvelenamento]

I know, but I am certain that when f1 season will start again with belgium GP, ferrari p1 rumors will disappear at once. I can bet all my money on this. In next future the only link between the word "p1" and "ferrari" will be the mediatic duel between LaFerrari and McLaren P1 about wich of two will be faster on nurburgring and other top gear style arguments.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

“Don't forget Porsche was considering Formula 1, but then confirmed Le Mans because Le Mans is a the base of Porsche history. That's why Ferrari is in Formula 1."

Ferrari has an enviable le mans palmares too, and I agree with maelochs. Porsche backed by VW group, was considering the idea to step inside f1, but watching bmw, toyota and honda fails they changed their mind, the risk of a failure was too high.

Following this reasoning, we can also say Ferrari doesn't consider WEC because the risk to be defeated by Audi & Co. is too much high.
Just opinions...

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Dario911 is wrong when he says that f1 isn't interesting under a technical point of view, otherwise can't be explained why f1 technologies are some time later transplanted in sportscars. However I need you all to remember we are speculating about the nothingness.

In endurance you can find a lot of different solutions, while formula 1 is all related to aerodynamic, now. Except for some aerodynamic solutions, all cars have the same weight, the same engine displacement, the same V8-engine, the same fuel.
In formula 1 development is only in aerodynamic field: engines development has been freezed so long, and so we didn't see any change in the last years.
With turbo introduction there will be something new, but I don't think so much as we may think. Rules make car so close, to make formula 1 very close to a single-maker championship.
About the minor risk of failure in Le Mans in confront of formula 1, I'm not so sure this is really the truth. Toyota has failed as in Le Mans (with its old 94C-V and GT-One projects) as well as in formula 1. Mercedes has failed in Le Mans (CLK GTR and CLR). The same for Nissan and its R390 GT1. And what about Peugeot? In so many years, Pug has sustained a very expensive endurance program with its 908, being always beaten by Audi in Le Mans, except in 2009. Presumably, this has led to Pug decision to leave endurance (apart its economical situation).

P.S.
Maelochs, Ferrari is the third winning manufacturer in Le Mans, behind Audi. It's not the second one.

[Maelochs]

I sort of thought this was a place to share opinions and ideas about sports car racing ....

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

We're going down a bit of a blind alley. F1 is more about just saying the words of the brand as much as anything. Vettel wins on the Sunday, and then I inexplicably find a six pack of Red Bull in my shopping bag on the Monday.

WEC is about "proving" the manufacturer's pedigree, I'd say. It's impressive that Audi can build a diesel and beat 55 other cars over 24 hours. It's impressive that Toyota can build a hybrid that isn't a Prius that can win races. Etc etc.

Porsche's strength in its brand is its pedigree built on a rich history, as well as recognition of their engineering prowess. With Audi fast closing in on their Le Mans victory tally, they would have been bonkers to enter F1 instead. They need the WEC. They don't need F1.

Ferrari is the opposite. Ferrari is Formula One to many. That sells the key rings and the 8 year old's bed sheets. But you know, they do want their cars to be taken seriously, and while the GT programme does that to some extent, can they really sit back while Porsche takes on the WEC?

I'm going to answer my own rhetorical question. And shoot the question down. Of course they can. This is Ferrari.

Right point!
Porsche has always been identified with le mans and endurance races. It has built its fame in this competitions. So, qhen VAG has bought Porsche, it was interested to take place in formula 1. Audi was in Le Mans, Lamborghini has not any racing heritage, Bentley has never been related to formula 1... Who was the only brand of the family with a such vast experience in all competitions (from rally to endurance, from GT to formula 1)?
Porsche, of course.
So, VAG management has evaluated to take place in formula 1 championship with this brand. But they've observed Porsche has its roots in endurance, and endurance has more interesting technical points. It was stupid to take place in a class so distant from their history!
Audi is close to Porsche wins in Le Mans. Obviously Porsche only interest is to take back the sceptre from its cousins.
Racing in formula 1 would have been too far from Porsche heritage and history, and would have been interpreted as a non-sense choice.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I sort of thought this was a place to share opinions and ideas about sports car racing ....

Well... is not what we're doing here?

[Aysedasi]

Yes, as long as we respect each other's opinions and don't insist we must be right when we could - just- be wrong.....

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Following this reasoning, we can also say Ferrari doesn't consider WEC because the risk to be defeated by Audi & Co. is too much high.
Just opinions...

You don't understand. Enter in WEC has a price, enter in F1 has WEC price x 5. Is not just about to win or not, is about make short and long term profits and stem losses. In 2001 williams was a sort of work team for BMW and was the second competitive team in the grid behind ferrari, williams-BMW won some races that time, it was enough to make profit? I think it was, at least in short term, but in long term bmw f1 project was a failure. A WEC failure is not critical for a manufacturer, but spend tons of € for years in f1 obtaining nothing else than a fail can kneel down the whole company. This is the reason why porsche and other f1 interested manufacturer don't get inside.
Anyway if 2014 and future regulamentation will still give an hand to diesel, audi will defeat every gasoline car in his way. May be porsche, ferrari, toyota, kia, hyundai, nissan, an on...

Money not motorsport passion

[avvelenamento]

"In endurance you can find a lot of different solutions, while formula 1 is all related to aerodynamic"

This is true, but R&D of aerodynamic in F1 is second only to civil and militar aviation. Scusa se è poco.

"About the minor risk of failure in Le Mans in confront of formula 1, I'm not so sure this is really the truth. Toyota has failed as in Le Mans (with its old 94C-V and GT-One projects) as well as in formula 1. Mercedes has failed in Le Mans (CLK GTR and CLR). The same for Nissan and its R390 GT1. And what about Peugeot? In so many years, Pug has sustained a very expensive endurance program with its 908, being always beaten by Audi in Le Mans, except in 2009. Presumably, this has led to Pug decision to leave endurance (apart its economical situation)"

Here again, toyota gt-one obtained a class win at le mans, it was a car that was used only at le mans and fuji. Beyond good or bad results GT-one program costs and the f1 ones are uncomparable, don't forgetting that gt-one was used also as mulet to test the 3.0 V10. Mercedes won fia gt in 1997 and 1998 with CLK, if this is a fail, it is also the 911-GT1 that won le mans in 1998 but lost fia gt. CLR was a damn failure, more than economical was a mercedes terrible epic fail. Peugeot won only LM 2009, but was the best car in 2008 and 2010. Beyond that won LMS 2007, ILMC 2011, sebring 2009 and two petit le mans. They could win more, this is right, but write that peugeot sportscar program has been a failure makes me laugh.

[avvelenamento]

Maybe you don't know, but most of the peugeot sport staff was at sebring to test the 908 HY4 when PSA ceo decided to cut the endurance program. PSA is still in a deep crisis, it was also even when peugeot 908HDi won during 2009 LM week-end. In Q4 of 2011 financial year (january-february-march 2012) PSA ceo simply had to decide if keep the endurance program, firing workers of production sector or shift endurance program budget to production sector. In my opinion they made the right decision. Peugeot 908 was the best new 2011 spec car, but lives of worker's children are infinitely more important.
Peugeot sport until last day before PSA ceo decision was working for the 2012 season, even if they were the 2008->2011 LM winners, the program was over however.
My bad, Aysedasi is right, all of us can be wrong. Peugeot recent palmares is also LMS 2010, sebring 2010 and 2011 (not 2009), and three PLM in a row. Sportscars is far to be only le mans.

[hondafan37]

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-20761.html

[TF110]

Read that last night. More wishful thinking than confirmation but rumors start somewhere, right?

[Simmi]

Cynically if I ran an endurance website I'd probably stick together a few stories about Ferrari and P1. Must be good for hits.

[pablocomics]

Originally Posted by TF110

Read that last night. More wishful thinking than confirmation but rumors start somewhere, right?

I read somewhere that everything started with one interview of Domenicali on La Stampa, that newspaper is tied closelly to Ferrari (it´s a property of Fiat SPA)

[deggis]

http://www.sportauto.de/motorsport/f...k-7519918.html

Google translation not perfect, but sounded more like a column.

[Acid09]

That article has nothing new, it just rehashes the old talking points:

- New F1 engines make it easier to use them for LMP1
- Ferrari has open development capacities due to F1 restrictions
- Ferrari wants to threaten F1 and claims they would like to race against factories again
- Decision could be made by the end of the year for 2015

So nothing new there. Unfortunately I think this is all to gain political leverage in Formula One.

[The Badger]

2015 in P2 is my guess ............ with many customer chassis to follow being sold , ala 333SP story .

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

2015 in P2 is my guess ............ with many customer chassis to follow being sold , ala 333SP story .

They wouldn't be able to do that as a works team.