[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[Deleted]

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/toyota-success-handicap-wec-flawed/4911650/?ic_source=home-page-widget&ic_medium=widget&ic_campaign=widget-1

[Vasselon] described success handicaps as "virtuous" and "better than the Balance of Performance", the means of levelling the playing field that will come into force in the new Le Mans Hypercar class that replaces LMP1 in the WEC for next season.

"Success handicaps are much better than BoP, where there is always a guess and you can win or lose on the margin of error [in the estimation]," said Vasselon.

"Success handicaps are fully objective, there is nothing subjective about it: you score points, you get a handicap.

[Aysedasi]

So, are you agreeing or disagreeing....?

[S griffin]

I think we would rather see LMPs in all their glory by not having that extra ballast. It’s not Toyota’s fault they’ve built a super car

[TF110]

Success handicaps are used decently in super gt but those cars are all very close in build vs lmps.

[Akrapovic]

Success handicaps are open to abuse in the exact same way BoP is open to abuse lol. BMW tried to game the VLN handicap system but made an error and won a pre-24 race by miles and were then BoP'd down.

Since Le Mans is the middle of the season nobody will want to show their true hand until Le Mans weekend. Which is basically what we see now. Sacrifice a couple of races to win Le Mans.

I'm not a fan of BoP or success handicaps. We're 1 step away from BTCCs pulling the grid out of a hat situation. Which is fine for Race 3 at Croft. For Le Mans it's not ok IMO.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

Success handicaps are used decently in super gt but those cars are all very close in build vs lmps.

because in super gt success handicap involves 15 cars in gt500 and about 25-30 in gt300 and this helps to actually create some kind of "balance". In this season WEC success handicap was involving only 3 cars since ginettas performances were a joke, and it decided who was going to win a race before even free practice.

[S griffin]

I agree the success ballast should not be used in WEC. Like F1, it's supposed to be top of it's tree and therefore shouldn't try and force close competition. Those that go to Le Mans go there for the spectacle more than anything else

[WyldStallion]

My interest in the WEC and LMH going forward starting in 2021 is 100% dependent on will be how the Toyota LMH car looks. If it looks like an LMP1 car I will be disappointed and will tune out. I do like the images of the GR Super Sport online. If we get that with a prototype rear wing then that is fine.

Please Toyota don't screw this up.

[chernaudi]

I actually wouldn't mind if the Toyota looks like a wider (maybe longer) TS050 with DPI-like styling cues. We already have that with DPI. And it's far from an new idea with DPI. Audi did it with the R8R, R8C, R8 and even to a degree with the R10, which borrowed some styling cues from the TT and, in the case of the R10, also the R8 road car, even if mostly in the headlight and taillight design. BMW also did much the same with their LMP cars.

It's not a huge make or break for me. What is is if LMH and LMDH in the new look LMP1 class will be (at least on paper) equal in ACO and IMSA events respectfully. Which, right now, is far from conclusive, with the ACO favoring LMH it seems because of Toyota's and Peugeot's involvement (though Audi and Porsche favoring LMDH right now may help that lobby considerably), and IMSA being on the fence about LMH cars being eligible for LMDH/DPI 2.0.

[chernaudi]

First spy pics of the Toyota LMH. Looks very LMP1-evo-ish to me.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/1...829ng92TgN9iys

[Gingers4Justice]

That’s prettier than an LMP1. Perhaps it’s lost some of its space-shippiness but I like that a lot!

[Aysedasi]

My nipper told me that Toyota had turned up there. (He's there testing with Algarve Pro).

[chernaudi]

Given some of the gnashing of teeth over how LMH/LMDH cars might look, for the first one in the flesh, the Toyota actually looks amazing. I know, low res photo and such, but the bench mark has been set. And it does seem that by being 2000mm wide and maybe a bit longer that's offset the wider/taller greenhouse.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

My nipper told me that Toyota had turned up there. (He's there testing with Algarve Pro).

Ooooh an ITK source! Any word of the sound coming out of it (and therefore what might be in the back of it)?

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Given some of the gnashing of teeth over how LMH/LMDH cars might look, for the first one in the flesh, the Toyota actually looks amazing. I know, low res photo and such, but the bench mark has been set. And it does seem that by being 2000mm wide and maybe a bit longer that's offset the wider/taller greenhouse.

It wouldn’t be a new set of regulations unless we gnashed our teeth on here, only to find we needn’t have.

[chernaudi]

It still has the dorsal fin on the engine cover, but at least it's smaller and less obtrusive.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Ooooh an ITK source! Any word of the sound coming out of it (and therefore what might be in the back of it)?

Sadly not. He described the whole Toyota operation as very 'secret squirrel' (hence the one low res photo that DSC obtained). The lad was also busy sorting out the car that was pranged yesterday....

[GingerPixel]

Seen a lot of comments on how different it looks to the open top road car they ran at LM but I'm not buying it. I think they're pretty close. How much is there in the rules about high downforce bodywork and the potential to cover the thing in winglets?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

Seen a lot of comments on how different it looks to the open top road car they ran at LM but I'm not buying it. I think they're pretty close. How much is there in the rules about high downforce bodywork and the potential to cover the thing in winglets?

They're about as close as Lotus Elise and a Toyota Previa. At best there may be shared drivetrain components located in similar places.

[GingerPixel]

I'm not sure we're looking at the same images, or if one of us is afflicted with gross exaggeration syndrome.

[chernaudi]

It does look more like a widened/maybe somewhat longer/slightly taller LMP1 car. Problem is the photo is so low res you can't make out very many details with certainty. And if Toyota have their way, we won't get high res photos for about another month.

But IMO, it does look quite a bit different than the car they had at LM. To me at least, it looks like a DPI take on it for Hypercar (styling cues, but a pure bred race car otherwise).

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

I'm not sure we're looking at the same images, or if one of us is afflicted with gross exaggeration syndrome.

Can you tell which is the odd one out?

Looks like they didn't even bother changing the TS050 headlights.

I applied mad skills to try and bring the GR Super Sport Concept closer to the TS050 LMH as seen in Algarve. Giorgio Piola, eat your heart out!


If you were to sketch the basic outlines of the two, there would be no lines in common.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It does look more like a widened/maybe somewhat longer/slightly taller LMP1 car. Problem is the photo is so low res you can't make out very many details with certainty. And if Toyota have their way, we won't get high res photos for about another month.

The livery suggests they're also there to take press photos. Otherwise the car would be in camouflage once again, or bare carbon.

[joeb]

Hard to tell much of anything from the grainy pics but I kind of like it. It got me thinking, the last Toyota top level "GT" car was widely loved despite not looking like the other street based GT1 cars of the time. It looked like a straight prototype and that was good enough for us back then. Plus, if cost is supposed to be a factor in the new rules, why wouldn't you take what you've learned from the TS050 and apply it to the new car?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by joeb

Hard to tell much of anything from the grainy pics but I kind of like it. It got me thinking, the last Toyota top level "GT" car was widely loved despite not looking like the other street based GT1 cars of the time. It looked like a straight prototype and that was good enough for us back then. Plus, if cost is supposed to be a factor in the new rules, why wouldn't you take what you've learned from the TS050 and apply it to the new car?

Perhaps because it breaks every design rule in the book? Yes, car designers have a set of basic rules following which, one can make a handsome car. GT-One follows practically all of them, that's why people who've never even seen a race car find it attractive. Did at the time and still do. Those prototypes were at worst handsome beasts. Things went wrong towards the mid-2000s due to regs and new aero trends.

[TF110]

I think it looks good from the grainy photo. Longer and a new paint job. Always liked the TS050 headlights too so Im glad they kept them.