[WEC] Ginetta LMP1

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by knighty

check this link for images of the 90 degree AIM V10 version last raced a few years back

http://juddpower.com/our-engines/aim-lmp1-engine/

Ah, those ones were never referred to as a Judd and the vast majority of teams kept the GV so I forgot about it. I figured the new part of the 72 degree block was just the weight reduction. I really don't think putting a narrower bank angle engine in a closed cockpit car will be a problem anyways, I mean look at how they crammed the GT-R engine into the Ligier.

Right now prospective LMP1 customers who would even be looking at a normally aspirated non-hybrid car are worried about being at least somewhat faster than an LMP2 without breaking without a lot of testing or development more than anything. The lower vibration configuration should be better for that.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And even with the "stress mounted" Indy Car engines, they were about the same bank angle, and "adaptor" doesn't mean a tube frame. Indy Cars used to use a "sheer plate" that was designed to allow dimensionally different engines to fit the same tub as well as to break the engine away with minimal damage to the tub.

You have to remember that a lot of the cars that used Judd engines (like Courage and Lola) were customer cars that had to take various engines that could be stipulated by the customer.

What does a mounting plate have to do with the engine being a stressed member or not? The only thing holding the bellhousing to said plate is the engine.

They also ran big fat V6s in Indy cars until 1996 and tons of them had stock block V8s put in them at some point or other.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

Ohh I'm wrong, the Oreca tub never have had a HPD v6 turbo before, it was the Ligier, sorry. However, the Oreca tub is able to accomodate the current Acura.

If kolles was able to modify the tub of the ADESS lmp2 (originally powered by the judd-bmw V8) to fit inside the AER V6 twin turbo, why oreca shouldn't be?
Anyway the acura dpi already made some test, so the engine is already where it has to be.

[chernaudi]

My point is that if you truly want to "stress mount" an engine directly to the tub, both the tub and engine have to be designed for it. Most stock block engines can't be stress mounted because they weren't designed to be a chassis element.

It works in F1 with multiple engines because the FIA stipulates in their technical regs that the engines have to be 90 degrees and share common mounting points on the tubs. There's nothing in the ACO's tech regs, as seen by the Audi diesels being 90 degrees (V12 and V10) and 120 degrees (V6), Judd having 72 and 90 degree V10s, the Nissan V6 being 60 degrees, everyone else's V8s being 90 degrees and the Toyota V6 and Porsche V4 being 90 degrees.

Only way for a customer chassis to accommodate various engines is have different mounting points for a stress mounted engine (difficult and cost/logistics prohibitive), or use tube frame or plate adaptors that bolt to the tub.

You also have to remember that most of the customer engines don't have the oil tank mounted on the front of them like the factory built engines do, at least when mounted in the factory cars. The factory teams have the advantage of designing their car around one particular engine and the chassis around that given engine.

[knighty]

Overall some good points raised guys, the 90 and 60 degree motors from Nissan-Cosworth, Honda and Nissan-GT, numerous V8's have all been massaged into the Adess, Oreca and Ligier chassis, so squeezing in the 72 degree bank angle of the V10 should not be a problem for an LMP1

Then I guess its just a case of length.......the V10 is 622mm long......as a guide the DB V8 is 516mm......the HK V8 is 584mm.......so it sounds doable.

I'm surprised of no mention about direct injection as its worth about 5% fuel save.......a biggy for WEC type racing, it will need to be implemented at some point.

Overall I would love to see this V10 motor back in endurance racing, hopefully a new LMP1 customer will take the plunge once the chassis orders start to flow for Oreca, Ginetta and BR-Dallara.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by knighty

Overall I would love to see this V10 motor back in endurance racing, hopefully a new LMP1 customer will take the plunge once the chassis orders start to flow for Oreca, Ginetta and BR-Dallara.

It would be great to have Judd back and the sound of a v10. At the moment the only available engines for P1 that I know are Nissan v6 turbo, Mecachrome v6 turbo, AER v6 turbo and the Judd v10.

Cosworth said years ago that they have a v8 turbo (build over the base of the old IRL v8 NA engine), but it needed money (from the customer) to finish the development.

[chernaudi]

That Cosworth engine dates back to around 2004-06 and is based on the GM Indy Car V8. That's how old that engine is and they already have a hand in the Nissan LMP1 engine.

[knighty]

anyway, back on subject........I thought the Ginetta LMP1 would run in October?.......seems a bit quiet???......when will it happen?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by knighty

anyway, back on subject........I thought the Ginetta LMP1 would run in October?.......seems a bit quiet???......when will it happen?

Do we know they haven't been running? I thought Ginetta had access to their own airport or track of some type for testing.

[Adam43]

They bought a UK track day venue.
http://www.ginetta.com/news_article.php?id=495

I've never been, but it is always an option for cheap track time. It's a nice part of the world, but there are better circuits nearer for me.

[silente]

The car is a bit late...about a month on the planned schedule, as far as i know.

[Adam43]

Surprisingly

[TF110]

Originally Posted by silente

The car is a bit late...about a month on the planned schedule, as far as i know.

A motorsport.com article earlier this month said they would test in November. I linked to it on the 4th. If they don't run then, I would agree. Maybe we'll learn more in a couple weeks.

[rdjones]

It's now confirmed that Manor are taking one of the cars. Not a real surprise but good news all the same.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/1...er-season.html

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by rdjones

It's now confirmed that Manor are taking one of the cars. Not a real surprise but good news all the same.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/1...er-season.html

S365 suggests it may be more than one car DSC seems to point at just one car

Happy either way but surely logistics suggest 2 cars make more sense at this scale??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[S griffin]

Maybe the second car will appear later. Either way it's a big win for both parties

[knighty]

yes you would need 1 car worth of spares, so they would need to purchase 2 cars for a 1 car effort, this is probably where the confusion lies.......so 3 cars bsold before that.

I think Ginetta said they were making a batch of 10 cars, 1 will be assigned to test duties......so that leaves 4 cars left, now to me I think they will sell a lot more.

there are several highly experienced LMP2 teams that bust be licking their lips at LMP1 in 2018, particularly the likes of DragonSpeed (who already announced the jump) Jota, Algarve, United, Graff........LMP2 just has far too many competitors and some must be feeling the LMP1 itch........DO IT!!!!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes you would need 1 car worth of spares, so they would need to purchase 2 cars for a 1 car effort, this is probably where the confusion lies.......so 3 cars bsold before that.

I think Ginetta said they were making a batch of 10 cars, 1 will be assigned to test duties......so that leaves 4 cars left, now to me I think they will sell a lot more.

Correct. Ginetta are making 10 cars initially, but only expect 6 of them to race. The others will be spare tubs (one per team).

[TF110]

Autosport also saying they may change to two lmp1's. Another big point in that article is this

"It is still the intention to stay in P2, because we have invested a lot of money in the category," explained Lowdon.

"But the direction we take as a team will be driven by the commercial model and at the moment that is heading in the wrong direction in P2."

From this, the commercial model seemingly looks better for them up front in lmp1. I would agree. More eyes on them running the top class for overall wins than in a basically spec-Oreca lmp2 class.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

Autosport also saying they may change to two lmp1's. Another big point in that article is this


From this, the commercial model seemingly looks better for them up front in lmp1. I would agree. More eyes on them running the top class for overall wins than in a basically spec-Oreca lmp2 class.

Or maybe lmp1 for glory, lmp2 for costumer money.
In 2011 and 2012 Oak racing ran both cars in lmp1 and lmp2 class.

[Adam43]

Perhaps get one of them on track first.

Please excuse my lack of patience.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by sceptic

The others will be spare tubs (one per team).

Making the teams buying a spare tub is a heavy hitter on budget-wise. I am not having a whinge about this honestly.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Making the teams buying a spare tub is a heavy hitter on budget-wise. I am not having a whinge about this honestly.

Not having a spare tub and then crashing heavily in practice for Le Mans next year would be an even bigger hit on your budget, as you would have committed to doing the whole of the 2018-19 "Super-season", and you wouldn't have a car any more.

[knighty]

If carlsberg made engines, they would make this

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/11/10/ginetta-take-delivery-of-first-mechachrome-lmp1-engine.html

I love it, decent capacity at 3.4 litres for low revs and low fuel consumption, very compact and low frontal aero envelope. The direct injection conversion was a must for LMP1, single turbo can easily handle 600hp or so......gets my vote

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by knighty

If carlsberg made engines, they would make this

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/1...p1-engine.html

I love it, decent capacity at 3.4 litres for low revs and low fuel consumption, very compact and low frontal aero envelope. The direct injection conversion was a must for LMP1, single turbo can easily handle 600hp or so......gets my vote

To me this engine won't be a low rev - dyno type. I expect figures like the ford gt motor used in GTE/GTLM. Close to 8000rpm and about 600-650Nm for the whole rpm range. To reach 700hp at 8000rpm the engine need to produce 625Nm.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Making the teams buying a spare tub is a heavy hitter on budget-wise. I am not having a whinge about this honestly.

Actually buying a spares package usually works out at much, much more and manufacturers often don't like people buying a car for spares for just that reason.