[Official] Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 23

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Bottas continued to drift wide throughout the incident, the replays usually stop at the point that Russell touches the grass, but Bottas just keeps coming until Russell "moves" him.

Why is there no footage of this collision sequence from Bottas' in car camera?

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/20...ola_crash.html

There is at 00:54, plus a few expletives in the footage before this.

https://youtu.be/BouDcDvc4fQ

[Cinghio44]

At a certain point Bottas seemed to remain "stable" while the two cars were aligned. He defended hard and Russel should not spin on the white line... difficult situation, maybe more cold blood could have saved both

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There is at 00:54, plus a few expletives in the footage before this.

https://youtu.be/BouDcDvc4fQ

Thanks BJ.
Still not the in cockpit from Bottas' car.

Given the rate that Bottas was coming across on Russell the high speed nature of that part of the circuit, and the fact that Bottas has left considerably less than the demarcated pit exit width, I don't think that Russell had any option but to react as he did. If they had tangled wheels Russell would have been launched! I know it seems unfashionable, but Bottas' fault in my book, he had no business defending like that against a hugely faster car.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

he had no business defending like that against a hugely faster car.

Good point. I guess if I was to add to my prior comments. Russell was coming at him like a freight train. So aggressive defense would resulted in what for Russell? Massive braking and/or evasion at such high speeds? Dangerous game to play.

Richard

[S griffin]

Watching that replay, I don’t feel Bottas moved across. He drifted a bit wide because of the kink. Just one of those things. In my view, misjudgement from Russell to try there

[52Paddy]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks BJ.
I don't think that Russell had any option but to react as he did. If they had tangled wheels Russell would have been launched!

Not sure if I agree. My view is that Bottas moved a fraction due to the kink in the track and if Russell had not reacted at all, the status quo would have remained and Bottas would not have collided with him anyway. However, easy for me to say. I wasn't travelling at 300kmh on a wet piece of tarmac.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

You can always have the presence of mind to consider what could happen and abort an attempted move.

That what genuinely great drivers can do.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You can always have the presence of mind to consider what could happen and abort an attempted move.

That what genuinely great drivers can do.

"What could happen" includes pretty much everything. I think the safest bet is to not even attempt a pass.

I would say the great drivers are not afraid to make the attempt. It would be interesting to see a poll of current F1 drivers who if in that same scenario would have tried the pass. If they were being honest, I think to a man, they would all say they would send it.

What is so funny is when someone tries a gutsy (i.e. risky) move and it works. We praise them for their brilliance, talk about it endlessly and watch it on highlight reels. If it doesn't work, we lambast them as idiots.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Spot on.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 52Paddy

Not sure if I agree. My view is that Bottas moved a fraction due to the kink in the track and if Russell had not reacted at all, the status quo would have remained and Bottas would not have collided with him anyway. However, easy for me to say. I wasn't travelling at 300kmh on a wet piece of tarmac.

This video posted by Aldas came to my attention today.

At 1:50 it is pointed out how the cars stay to the left of the white line on the centre of the track, whereas Bottas is way way over said line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWe_5JVSyM

[Aysedasi]

'A pure and simple racing accident'. Yes, that's how I see it. I don't think it deserves picking over any more, TBH.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

"What could happen" includes pretty much everything. I think the safest bet is to not even attempt a pass.

Yeah, that's right, what could happen does include everything. Typically though it means what's plausible.

One dry line, very quick closing speed, and approaching a corner.

Another option would be to hold off from making an attempt, setting up out of Tosa even better the next lap, and make a clean pass next time.

He'd presumably finish 7th or better. First points for Williams under his belt, a mini milestone achieved and enhances/justifies his reputation of having potential.

But instead he ballsed it up. And his fans are making justifications for the error, including trying to pin the blame on Bottas.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I would say the great drivers are not afraid to make the attempt.

Great drivers are aware of everything, not afraid to make an attempt, but not so gullible as to think any opportunity is a definite opportunity.

Imola in 05 & 06, Schumacher and Alonso in effectively the same situations. It wouldn't surprise me if either thought there were gilt edged opportunities to pass, but thought better of it because of a collision.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It would be interesting to see a poll of current F1 drivers who if in that same scenario would have tried the pass. If they were being honest, I think to a man, they would all say they would send it.

None of them would admit it if they wouldn't.

[52Paddy]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yeah, that's right, what could happen does include everything. Typically though it means what's plausible.

One dry line, very quick closing speed, and approaching a corner.

Another option would be to hold off from making an attempt, setting up out of Tosa even better the next lap, and make a clean pass next time.

He'd presumably finish 7th or better. First points for Williams under his belt, a mini milestone achieved and enhances/justifies his reputation of having potential.

But instead he ballsed it up. And his fans are making justifications for the error, including trying to pin the blame on Bottas.

Great drivers are aware of everything, not afraid to make an attempt, but not so gullible as to think any opportunity is a definite opportunity.

Well put.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

And his fans are making justifications for the error, including trying to pin the blame on Bottas.

Why do you assume that when someone takes a contrary position they do it because they are 'fans' of one or other driver?

I don't disagree with the summary, just the assumption that it is only fans of George who would jump to his defence.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Great drivers are aware of everything, not afraid to make an attempt, but not so gullible as to think any opportunity is a definite opportunity.

We can go round and round on this topic. I have no doubt we will continue to disagree on this, so this may be my last comment. But in general I think all drivers, bad, good and great will attempt risky overtakes. It's fair to say that the great drivers will do it much less frequently, but history is littered with examples of the "greats" who get it wrong. Be it silly mistakes (having an off all by themselves) or stuffing it in when they shouldn't and it works out badly for them.

George could play it safe. Drive around at the back. Do nothing better than beating his teammate. Stay out of trouble and out of the headlines. Or he could give it a real go and push hard and try to push a car further up the grid than maybe it should be. No doubt some like you will find various ways to disparage what he is doing. Others such as myself may see huge potential in him. Time will tell if George is the real deal or not. Is he a future WDC? No way to know. Is he better than you say? IMHO, yes.

But I can guarantee if he isn't aggressive and doesn't push, he will NOT move forward in his F1 career. He is no longer a rookie. He has to show that "he has it" at this point. And I am not saying to make desperate moves, but to be smart, but aggressive. And that includes taking risks. If not, he will just play out his career in Williams until (insert name of another young hot-shot driver who people are looking to elevate as the next "greatest thing") arrives and displaces him.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

I completely agree.

[52Paddy]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

We can go round and round on this topic. I have no doubt we will continue to disagree on this, so this may be my last comment. But in general I think all drivers, bad, good and great will attempt risky overtakes. It's fair to say that the great drivers will do it much less frequently, but history is littered with examples of the "greats" who get it wrong. Be it silly mistakes (having an off all by themselves) or stuffing it in when they shouldn't and it works out badly for them.

George could play it safe. Drive around at the back. Do nothing better than beating his teammate. Stay out of trouble and out of the headlines. Or he could give it a real go and push hard and try to push a car further up the grid than maybe it should be. No doubt some like you will find various ways to disparage what he is doing. Others such as myself may see huge potential in him. Time will tell if George is the real deal or not. Is he a future WDC? No way to know. Is he better than you say? IMHO, yes.

But I can guarantee if he isn't aggressive and doesn't push, he will NOT move forward in his F1 career. He is no longer a rookie. He has to show that "he has it" at this point. And I am not saying to make desperate moves, but to be smart, but aggressive. And that includes taking risks. If not, he will just play out his career in Williams until (insert name of another young hot-shot driver who people are looking to elevate as the next "greatest thing") arrives and displaces him.

Richard

Personally myself, I think Russell is a potential race winner and, maybe, even a future world champion. He has shown flashes of true pace and, clearly, isn't afraid to get his elbows out. I also would think he deserves a better car for 2022 to really show us what he has got.

However, you do not get those offers from bigger teams by taking silly risks like he did. And that's the difference. No team manager will look at Russell's actions and think "Well, fair play to him for trying that move. That the kind of driver I want." It hasn't helped him and Toto's comments show that. Not only that, but his physical reaction in the aftermath of the collision brings his defence down another peg.

I'm not a Russell-basher and I do, genuinely, think he is a possible gem in the field that deserves to have a proper bash at an F1 career. But excusing a dumb move for the sake of being aggressive is a little far-fetched in my opinion. True, great drivers all make mistakes. And, as such, you need to own them mistakes. Russell screwed up. He should have sucked it up and moved on. And, to be fair to him, I appreciate that he did reflect on it eventually.

[S griffin]

The best drivers know when to make a risky move and have the skill to get away with it 9 times out of 10. That’s part of their skill. Russell will hopefully learn that with time

[chillibowl]

Dont the best drivers also know when to give up corners?

Why is Russell the reckless one when it is Bottas who is the one fighting for a title?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Dont the best drivers also know when to give up corners?

Why is Russell the reckless one when it is Bottas who is the one fighting for a title?

Isn't the truth that Bottas is fighting to keep the seat..... against a man who could take it from him?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Isn't the truth that Bottas is fighting to keep the seat..... against a man who could take it from him?

or is Bottas himself the bigger threat to his seat?

not allowing a faster car cleanly through a DRS corner was a risk he chose to take and one that doesnt quite compute given he drives a works Mercedes and would have, in all likelihood, easily been able to make up positions/points during the remainder of that race.

it may be an all or nothing mindset for Bottas which would be a bit desperate imo. Nico went to great lengths to maintain his composure. this is the approach that is needed again by a title rival and one which it appears that Max has adopted.

of course i am saying all of this in hindsight and there are still a lot of races to go. i guess might as well make your mistakes early in the season.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

or is Bottas himself the bigger threat to his seat?

Yep, that's probably even closer to the reality.....