IOM TT Pros/Cons

[MGDavid]

what a brilliant piece of writing, puts into words that which we mere mortals cannot express.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Extreme bike racing and mountaineering are lifestyles and asking people to stop contributing to the body count is to ask them to change their lives because of our own buttoned-up sensibilities and infatuation with living safe and long. It is to say that doing one thing with a life is better than another.

The same could be said of a suicide bomber.

[chunder]

Oh dear, waits in anticipation for the responses, I seem to have found a rival for winding posters on here up!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunder

Oh dear, waits in anticipation for the responses, I seem to have found a rival for winding posters on here up!

Well I wonder who's winding who up. We're being told that a piece of crackpot journalism in the Irish Times is so brilliant its beyond what 'mere mortals' can express.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Well I wonder who's winding who up. We're being told that a piece of crackpot journalism in the Irish Times is so brilliant its beyond what 'mere mortals' can express.

Perhaps a reply to the content would be less crackpot?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Well I wonder who's winding who up. We're being told that a piece of crackpot journalism in the Irish Times is so brilliant its beyond what 'mere mortals' can express.

I wasn't 'telling you' - I was expressing a valid opinion, which is what you have been doing all along too. Works both ways.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The same could be said of a suicide bomber.

Beyond the fact that the analogy does not exist to the point of being asinine, tell me anyway; how is one who murders as many people a possible, with the murderer's death intentional, the same as one who challenges one's self, to the extreme, with death not an intended result?

Your narcissism is telling, but this should be good.

[Asp]

I was over on the Isle of Man for the first time this race week as part of the (very significant) medical team for the TT.

Whilst waiting between races, I was contemplating this very same issue myself.

One thing that is clear is that medical provision is as good as at a short race circuit. Well disciplined and organised, if someone stands a chance of surviving an accident on the Mountain they're not going to suffer because of a lack of medical attention. See Connor Cummins crash last year - for him to be racing this year is nothing short of a miracle, and in previous years it almost certainly would have lead to his death.

There were mere deaths this year than normal - especially on the highways. And I know we've been treating these differently, but if you do group them all together would cancelling the TT change anything?

The Mountain course is always going to be there, and always going to attact riders - many travelling at high speeds (as there's no national speedlimit). If there's no TT, people will still travel the ride the Mountain, fall off, and die. There's more over TT week because there's more people there.
Some people decide to tackle the course in the controlled conditions of the race weeks. Which is probably safer than trying it on a dark September evening - bales are out, roads are closed but to other competitors, the track is marshalled etc.

We want - and need - to do everything possible to stop people dying. But I'm not yet convinced that the TT doesn't actually lessen the annual casualty figures in the global picture.

And, the overall benefits of the event and so good and important for the community, whilst nothing can replace any life - it might come close to being part of a compromise...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Your narcissism is telling, but this should be good.

A basic rule of 10-10ths is to attack the post and not the poster. Furthermore, I didn't contribute to this thread in order to entertain you.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I wasn't 'telling you' - I was expressing a valid opinion, which is what you have been doing all along too. Works both ways.

Fair point David and sorry about that. I appreciate you were expressing an opinion.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by davyboy

A basic rule of 10-10ths is to attack the post and not the poster. Furthermore, I didn't contribute to this thread in order to entertain you.

You take a thread on the IOM TT, call a newspaper article, giving tribute to the exceptional sportsmen that compete there, "crackpot journalism", based on nothing more than your opinion; you compare the IOM TT to homicide bombers, based on nothing more than your opinion and then protest when one says your rhetoric speaks for you, oh well.

When asked to explain or defend your rhetoric, you respond by saying you didn't "contribute" to entertain, well then explain your rhetoric that is as is simply baseless, more resembling trolling than contributing anything.

Again I ask, based on what does the IOM TT have ANY relation to a murdering bomber?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Again I ask, based on what does the IOM TT have ANY relation to a murdering bomber?

Read the quoted piece once again. It trivialises those who believe that life is precious and that survival is meaningful not only to the individual but to those around them. I said that the quoted piece could be equally applied to a suicide bomber - somebody whose beliefs transcend their reason to exist. I did not say a murdering bomber. Please note I was criticising that article and not attacking you. So please refrain from attacking me.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It trivialises those who believe that life is precious and that survival is meaningful not only to the individual but to those around them.

Life is precious, but it's also there to be lived. What right do we, as individuals, have to dictate to others how they live &, yes, die?

Nobody regrets TT fatalities more than me, but those riders have lived life to the full, not just sat around for 80 years or so waiting to die.

Others' opinion may differ - I respect their right to that opinion, but repeated attempts to impose it on those of us who disagree can become rather tiresome.

Just for the record, I have personally known, albeit only as acquaintances, two people who have died racing motorcycles, one at the TT; despite that, I'm happy for the TT to continue.

[Bob Riebe]

Quoting the written word out of context, which is also often done with the Bible, can be used to make any tome or article, represent the bias of the one choosing the quote, even to the point of representing the anti-thesis of the actual article or tome.

I, can find no part of this quote: Extreme bike racing and mountaineering are lifestyles and asking people to stop contributing to the body count is to ask them to change their lives because of our own buttoned-up sensibilities and infatuation with living safe and long. It is to say that doing one thing with a life is better than another.---that is even remotely related to a bomber whose only intent is to murder others, with the bombers death, simply being a necessity.

At the IOM TT, possible death is a fact that MUST first, be taken into account, as a failure to execute, can have a permanent consequence, not only death but worse to me, being crippled.

The quote does address the point that anti-IOM TT people , and this applies to all forms of so called extreme endeavors, expect others to stop doing what they do not like, and the preferences of the the others be damned.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Fair point David and sorry about that. I appreciate you were expressing an opinion.

no probs; I suspect we may ultimately have to 'agree to disagree' but can still have a good discussion along the way...

[chunder]

The best way to approach the event and its failings/appeal are to either go or not go and attend.

I have and never will go to the TT or buy anything related to it, be it merchandise, videos or books/magazines.

It's like a hotel or restaurant, if you don't like the menu simply don't go.

It doesn't make me less of a fan, doesn't make people who embrace it more of a fan.

I admire the riders but I can't respect them as they are inherently doing something very selfish that could hurt their family and friends and in the long run, were there to be a truly awful event, bike racing as a whole.

[garcon]

The analogy with mountaineers is as brilliant as the one with suicide bombers is insulting.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by garcon

The analogy with mountaineers is as brilliant as the one with suicide bombers is insulting.

Your opinion.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Quoting the written word out of context, which is also often done with the Bible, can be used to make any tome or article, represent the bias of the one choosing the quote, even to the point of representing the anti-thesis of the actual article or tome.

I, can find no part of this quote: Extreme bike racing and mountaineering are lifestyles and asking people to stop contributing to the body count is to ask them to change their lives because of our own buttoned-up sensibilities and infatuation with living safe and long. It is to say that doing one thing with a life is better than another.---that is even remotely related to a bomber whose only intent is to murder others, with the bombers death, simply being a necessity.

The article is one sided from beginning to end. It concluded with the glorification of those who take part and the derision of those who believe its too dangerous to carry on.

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The quote does address the point that anti-IOM TT people , and this applies to all forms of so called extreme endeavors, expect others to stop doing what they do not like, and the preferences of the the others be damned.

I've two points to make :

o As a civilised society, there are many of activities that we've collectively decided are too dangerous to remain legal. The rights of the individual to pursue such activities lie below the values of our society. So people can't do what they like, even if it only has consequences for themselves.

o Quite often the consequences go beyond the individual. There are many children without parents as a result of the TT and households suffering as a result of the loss of a breadwinner. These people had no choice in this matter, yet they're profoundly affected by it.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Your opinion.

Yup.

Go on then, back your opinion. Tell us how riding bikes at silly speeds round an island is like being a suicide bomber. I'm truly intrigued.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by davyboy

o As a civilised society, there are many of activities that we've collectively decided are too dangerous to remain legal. The rights of the individual to pursue such activities lie below the values of our society. So people can't do what they like, even if it only has consequences for themselves.

Who decides on the values of our society ?

Originally Posted by davyboy

o Quite often the consequences go beyond the individual. There are many children without parents as a result of the TT and households suffering as a result of the loss of a breadwinner. These people had no choice in this matter, yet they're profoundly affected by it.

Excuse my incompetence on the topic once more but I somehow fail to see how this is different compared to the death in a common road traffic accident unrelated to the TT.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Andy77

Who decides on the values of our society ?

In a democracy such as ours... a majority of us.

Originally Posted by Andy77

Excuse my incompetence on the topic once more but I somehow fail to see how this is different compared to the death in a common road traffic accident unrelated to the TT.

The probability of serious injury or death is many magnitudes greater.

[jhansen]

A group's ability to impose its will on the freedoms of individuals, when said freedoms do not impede the freedoms of the group, is not civilized society.

It's darn right scary.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In a democracy such as ours... a majority of us.




The probability of serious injury or death is many magnitudes greater.

It may be.

Quite often the consequences go beyond the individual. There are many children without parents as a result of the TT and households suffering as a result of the loss of a breadwinner. These people had no choice in this matter, yet they're profoundly affected by it.

Maybe my second statement above was a bit unclear so I have quoted your post again and give it another try. I fail to see a difference between remaining families of rta's and remaining families of racers who died at a circuit or the TT in particular. And because I do fail to see a difference here, the argument you brought up, is zero and void to me personally.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In a democracy such as ours... a majority of us.

......

yup; and I reckon you are in the minority on this one.