Mini Challenge Crash at QLD Raceway - Spectator Safety

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

How do you suspect we can overcome flying cars clearing the barriers? 100 feet high fences? A roof?

We could always put the tracks underground (like pit exit at Abu Dhabi) - that way everyone can watch on a screen somewhere nice and safe (home sounds good) and then only the drivers can hurt themselves!

(Yes flippant, but well - no more need be said.)

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

We could always put the tracks underground (like pit exit at Abu Dhabi) - that way everyone can watch on a screen somewhere nice and safe (home sounds good) and then only the drivers can hurt themselves!

(Yes flippant, but well - no more need be said.)

Seriously Tim, maybe its time you kept the flippant thoughts to yourself.

Yet again, a thread has gone off topic, but whilst a lot of comment is relatively pertinent, I'm struggling to see how your post above will do anything except promote stupid comment.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

Seriously Tim, maybe its time you kept the flippant thoughts to yourself.

Yet again, a thread has gone off topic, but whilst a lot of comment is relatively pertinent, I'm struggling to see how your post above will do anything except promote stupid comment.

I think you missed his point.

There is a level of safety/entertainment. One goes up, the other goes down. It'll never be 100% safe (as he mentioned earlier, the only way for that is to ban all motorsport) but where does it end? His post is just pointing out an extreme (and sadly, while cams are in charge, its quite a possibility)

[fomoco]

People People People,

I was there, and have been there for 11 years at various Flag points. For CAMS sactioned meetings and AASA meetings.

Yes race cars do crash, yes they hit barriers and walls. Some of the posts on this topic, well lets just say " the posters need to go out side and go thru the motions of having a cigarete and and a beer.

One, Kains crash, his car flipped a slid on its roof. Two years ago a V8 supercar brake's failed, the driver drove across the gravel and tuned left and came out past Flag Point 3A. He was going a tad faster than a mini.

The actual fence from Kains crash actualy lifted the car and cleared the spectators who were trying to get out of their seats. Go to Youtube and slowmow the footage.

If kain had been on his wheels, he would have buried it it the gravel.
WHen some of the posters have completed thier degrees in Mechanical and Civil Engineering, then speek freely on Gravel traps, Tyre Barriers, and Fences.

Pull google earth, do a measurement on the track, length of gravel trap, height of wall, width of moat, height of fence. then apply these measurements to the vehicle rolling across. You maybe quiet suprised.

I am not a defender of Cicuit owners or promoters. SOme of the posters here should be employed by law firms, just like good old US of A. SUe everyone.

I think thats about it for this topic.

[Gaz170]

I think the main issue is that the gravel /sand trap isn't slowing the cars down. If the trap worked properly, the car shouldn't have reached the fence at a speed fast enough to launch itself.

[davester]

MIRACLE - how few people got hurt by that accident.
PREDICTABLE - how those silent and ignorant before the event become vocal after it.
HYPOCRITE - Dick Johnson, by his own inference took his team to a track likely to cause foreseeable injury.
SUBDUED - VESA the event promoter, know this can happen again at most permanent tracks.
CONUNDRUM - Do VESA, the competitors, and the fans want permanent* high catch fences combined with deeper spectator set-backs stretching around the perimeter of the traditional permanent tracks? You do all realise it is the only solution to guard spectators and track workers from accidents.

* They'll need to be permanent, as this accident showed that the danger was with a slower category of vehicle, one doing speeds similar to those found at everyday ordinary clubdays.

SOLUTION - get a govt loan to build the fence, amortise in ticket and track hire charges over 10 years.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

I think the main issue is that the gravel /sand trap isn't slowing the cars down. If the trap worked properly, the car shouldn't have reached the fence at a speed fast enough to launch itself.

Is a gravel trap designed to stop a car thats on its roof?

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

Seriously Tim, maybe its time you kept the flippant thoughts to yourself.

Yet again, a thread has gone off topic, but whilst a lot of comment is relatively pertinent, I'm struggling to see how your post above will do anything except promote stupid comment.

I presume the 'Stop Flaming' smilies were directed at someone else - I certainly wasn't flaming anyone....that aside

As STEALTHY says - just hammering home a point in relaiton to this and similar accidents. The ONLY way to stop them (and I do mean ONLY) is completely remove the cars from the spectators. No matter what you do or how hard you try to 'fix' this problem , it WILL come up again somewhere - the odds are just too great.

And - off topic? I don't think so.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

flying LMP1's last year

A better example. Ortelli's accident was most similar to this one and the fence stopped him succesfully.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Is a gravel trap designed to stop a car thats on its roof?

It might stand a chance, as long as it's actually in the gravel. If it's boundcing along merrily mostly off the ground (a situation that commenced before reaching the trap) it's going to have no effect. You might stand a better chance with a large pond...

RE tyre walls, you can make them out of whatever you like, band them how you feel fit and fill them with any manner of inserts. If the car doesn't hit them then they're not going to have much effect...

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Woolley

It might stand a chance, as long as it's actually in the gravel. If it's boundcing along merrily mostly off the ground (a situation that commenced before reaching the trap) it's going to have no effect. You might stand a better chance with a large pond...

RE tyre walls, you can make them out of whatever you like, band them how you feel fit and fill them with any manner of inserts. If the car doesn't hit them then they're not going to have much effect...

Oh god, if CAMS do read this, every track is now going to have moats.

[Woolley]

I once saw an Alfa saloon hit an unofficial water splash (a large dip in the outfield filled up with rainwater). I can confirm it stopped him very effectively. It also blew the gator off the gear leaver resulting in an impressive, if somewhat smelly, fountain!

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Like I said - they are NOT common occurrences in the overall number of races and cars racing. They get remembered simply because they AREN'T the norm.

BTW - with that - care to put dates (just a year will do) on them all for us so we can see that these 'common occurrences' have all happened in the recent past (let's define recent as the last 12 months....)

• 1996 - Circuit des Ducs - Euro Rallycross - Six spectators RIP
• 1999 - Donington - F3000 - One spectator RIP
• 1999 - LeMans - Mark Webber flip
• 1999 - Laguna Seca - Indycar - Gonzalo Rodriguez RIP -
• 2000 - Silverstone - F1 testing -
• 2005 - Brands Hatch - Clio Cup -
• 2006 - Pukekohe - Porsche Cup
• 2007 - Magny Cours - GP2
• 2008 - Oulton Park - Ginetta

That enough for now. Its not once every ten or twenty years, its a bit more common unfortunately. Its an awful feeling when you see a car go into a crowd for real.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

• 1996 - Circuit des Ducs - Euro Rallycross - Six spectators RIP
• 1999 - Donington - F3000 - One spectator RIP
• 1999 - LeMans - Mark Webber flip
• 1999 - Laguna Seca - Indycar - Gonzalo Rodriguez RIP -
• 2000 - Silverstone - F1 testing -
• 2005 - Brands Hatch - Clio Cup -
• 2006 - Pukekohe - Porsche Cup
• 2007 - Magny Cours - GP2
• 2008 - Oulton Park - Ginetta

That enough for now. Its not once every ten or twenty years, its a bit more common unfortunately. Its an awful feeling when you see a car go into a crowd for real.

Now post up stats of all the cars that race and DONT end up in the crowd, for a good comparison

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

• 1996 - Circuit des Ducs - Euro Rallycross - Six spectators RIP
• 1999 - Donington - F3000 - One spectator RIP
• 1999 - LeMans - Mark Webber flip
• 1999 - Laguna Seca - Indycar - Gonzalo Rodriguez RIP -
• 2000 - Silverstone - F1 testing -
• 2005 - Brands Hatch - Clio Cup -
• 2006 - Pukekohe - Porsche Cup
• 2007 - Magny Cours - GP2
• 2008 - Oulton Park - Ginetta

That enough for now. Its not once every ten or twenty years, its a bit more common unfortunately. Its an awful feeling when you see a car go into a crowd for real.

2005 Joe Osbourne (FBMW) thruxton, cleared tyre wall and stopped by catch fence.

[garbo6]

2007 Porsche @ Thruxton - Kelvin Burt clears the catch fence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n8MhZhw_sQ

[Woolley]

I can think of two more at Donington and one at Magny Cours. In the case of those two at Donington there was a full height safety fence cleared by a Super Touring car and almost cleared by an F3000. Also an F3 driver died at Thruxton when stopped by the fencing.

All anyone can do is assess the likely risk and do what they can to reduce it, but there's no solution that will work in every case.

[Falcadore]

Speedway cars clearing fencing, deliberately deisgned to catch cars, from time to time.

But always, ever always, the most dangerous part of a motor racing meeting is when the car is on the trailer.

Driving with other cars around you, dragging a huge pendulum behind your car if you have a trailer instead of a transporter, with no roll cage, no six point harness, no helmet. With other cars travelling towards and past you at a closing speed on 200 km/h with just a painted white line on sections of single carriageway. With no medical team on a 120 second standby, concrete barriers only inplace occasionally and flag and fire marshals ready to leap to your defence and no ambulances standing by to whisk you away in the case of the worst.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

• 1996 - Circuit des Ducs - Euro Rallycross - Six spectators RIP
• 1999 - Donington - F3000 - One spectator RIP
• 1999 - LeMans - Mark Webber flip
• 1999 - Laguna Seca - Indycar - Gonzalo Rodriguez RIP -
• 2000 - Silverstone - F1 testing -
• 2005 - Brands Hatch - Clio Cup -
• 2006 - Pukekohe - Porsche Cup
• 2007 - Magny Cours - GP2
• 2008 - Oulton Park - Ginetta

That enough for now. Its not once every ten or twenty years, its a bit more common unfortunately. Its an awful feeling when you see a car go into a crowd for real.

Ohmygawd - this proves it then - 9 incidents in 15 years of motor racing. BAN ALL RACING IMMEDIATELY.

Get Real!
Hang on a minute - how many marshals have had their feet run over in the marshalling area in this same time? Whoops, better ban cars with tyres as well as they are dangerous to feet.

How many windscreens have been broken on the race track in the same period? Better ban windscreens as well.

And how many drivers have died behind the wheel of a racing car during the same period?

Sorry Rachel - the whole point is that these ARE isolated incidents and they are NOT common ocurrences. The sheer number of cars racing, number of events and the HUGE number of laps completed WITHOUT incident mean that they cannot reasonably be foreseen or prevented.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can predict what will happen in a race, how a driver will react, or what stupid decisions are made by drivers, officials or the public. Look at the British GP when some kook invaded the track years ago. Why wasn't 20 foot high fencing immediately placed around the entire track after this?

</soap box off to let others think about the ridiculous nature of calling for measures to events you cannot foresee>

[Wood-duck]

Perhaps we might also consider how said Mini ended up on it's lid in the first place.... Lightweight FWD cars and race circuits havent had the greatest of histories, remember (was it Mason?) that barrell rolled that Suzuki Swift at the chase at Bathurst in 1995 ?

Now some brain surgeon wants to bring the swift series back...

I understand that this was Magro's first national event - dare we go down the licencing standards track ?

[NewsStalker]

I seem to recall being at Sandown in the days of the Mazda 121 (is that the right one??) series where one of the cars (all female drivers btw) upended itself. Because of the shape of the car when it ended up on its roof it just rolled backwards and forwards on its roof. Shouldn;t laugh - but this made me think then, and again now, that some cars should NEVER be on the race track.

[motorfoto]

These cars are not "lightweight", in fact they are only 200kg less than a V8 Supercar, they have a much higher centre of gravity, front wheel drive, short wheelbase, sticky tyre on each corner - basic physics will tell you they prefer to roll like a tennis ball than slide to a stop.

Add an inexperienced driver or two - big TV event -disaster in waiting.

The 2nd incident (throttle jam) would have been minimised if the driver had steered into the gravel trap instead of away from it completely - inexperience again.

So no one told her the "gravel trap is your friend". Where do they get GC Licences these days ?.

There were quite a number of contributing factors to each incident at QR T6 - if you want to get to the core of the incidents, look for the common factor in each, then you will isolate that issue that contributed to all of them.

1- same type of car
2- inexperienced drivers
3- unfamiliar car to the driver (lack of track miles)

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by motorfoto

Where do they get GC Licences these days ?.

There is your answer....

[aussiefveeracer]

No idea as GC licence hasn't existed for a few years now..... But suffice to say if you don't know the licence levels, best not to comment on how someone goes about obtaining one....

[tux1234]

There was an issue with the throttles sticking open in Germany see http://www.youtube.com/user/MrPorsch.../1/DoBoWEj7dq8

Lucky this car didn't go over the fence as well.

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by aussiefveeracer

No idea as GC licence hasn't existed for a few years now..... But suffice to say if you don't know the licence levels, best not to comment on how someone goes about obtaining one....

Aussie F Vee, i get your point, but I think the intention was that, once upon a time, the structure of the Driver Evaluation, and the gaining of a General Competition licence is far removed from this.

OLT ???