Petrol Parity Pantomimes

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Did V8SC handle the change in fuel through the Supp Regs of the meeting?

Assuming you already know, but no, they did not

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Assuming you already know, but no, they did not

So... how did that work then... isnt the duly authorised V8SC technical manual and the subsequent duly authorised supplementary regulations the only documents that can control the specification of control items and components and products that can be used in a V8Supercar?

How did the one-race switch to E70 and back again managed to circumvent each of these duly authorised frameworks?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

So... how did that work then... isnt the duly authorised V8SC technical manual and the subsequent duly authorised supplementary regulations the only documents that can control the specification of control items and components and products that can be used in a V8Supercar?

How did the one-race switch to E70 and back again managed to circumvent each of these duly authorised frameworks?

Here is the fuel rule GTR:
D29.1.2 Specified Fuel
For the duration of a Meeting:
29.1.2.1 Cars must use only the specified (but unbranded) control fuel approved
by V8 Supercars;
29.1.2.2 no other substance of any type may be added to the specified fuel, and
29.1.2.3 the specified fuel will be available for purchase at all Meetings.

No frameworks were circumvented, the approved control fuel for three of the cars was changed for part of the race meeting as part of a pre-planned assessment program, with all teams notified and in agreement. Pretty simple really.

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Here is the fuel rule GTR:
D29.1.2 Specified Fuel
For the duration of a Meeting:
29.1.2.1 Cars must use only the specified (but unbranded) control fuel approved
by V8 Supercars;
29.1.2.2 no other substance of any type may be added to the specified fuel, and
29.1.2.3 the specified fuel will be available for purchase at all Meetings.

No frameworks were circumvented, the approved control fuel for three of the cars was changed for part of the race meeting as part of a pre-planned assessment program, with all teams notified and in agreement. Pretty simple really.

What he said.

The simpler version is - if everyone agrees almost any rule can be changed GT-R. Which is exactly what happened.

And your responses had absolutely nothing to do with my point. Which was simply that you were continually asserting something that was untrue.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by bluesport

DICK JOHNSON
Team owner - Dick Johnson Racing

"Well, it's a parity formula. It's early days for them, we've got 30 years of development behind our cars. At the end of the day you can't tell me that an engine built in the 2000s is less fuel efficient than something that has its roots in the fifties, it's just that they need more development. And as time goes on they'll work through that and end up with the performance they need."

Would you have been happy to see them run the enduros with E70?

"Yeah, it wouldn't have mattered. I don't think it gave the desired result anyway, that's why they abandoned it."

What do you make of the Holden side jumping up and down?

"Mate, they've been jumping up and down since the early '60s when I first got into motorsport, so nothing's changed! Where there's competition there's always going to be conflict. Holden's always been at the forefront of that, banging on CAMS door years ago trying to get this and that, and it'd come out a day before Bathurst they'd have something homologated where nobody else could get it. They've been playing the same game for years, so don't expect anything too different from them in the future, either!"

Never been much of a DJ fan but he's nailed this spot on.

[Mixer]

Nice set of rose coloured glasses there. With selective memory like that its no surprise he has so few friends...

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Nice set of rose coloured glasses there. With selective memory like that its no surprise he has so few friends...

Dick's just telling it like it is........that's exactly what has happened and it's still going on.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Dick's just telling it like it is........that's exactly what has happened and it's still going on.

Blah blah blah, cos Ford NEVER lobbied to homologate anything. or Mazda, or Nissan.

Its how the sport works.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Blah blah blah, cos Ford NEVER lobbied to homologate anything. or Mazda, or Nissan.

Its how the sport works.

Australian motorsport will never have any real credibility while holden's political shenanigans continue to influence the outcomes.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Australian motorsport will never have any real credibility while holden's political shenanigans continue to influence the outcomes.

I know, and Simon McNamara has a shocking habit of biting the heads off baby seals.

[Buckshot]

The squeaky wheel gets the most grease.

The other manufacturers should be saying to their heads of motorsport why aren't you doing as a good a job as Simon is getting us what WE need for our brand ?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Buckshot

The squeaky wheel gets the most grease.

The other manufacturers should be saying to their heads of motorsport why aren't you doing as a good a job as Simon is getting us what WE need for our brand ?

Or more interestingly perhsps, who do the powers that be seem to almost always listen to Mr McNamara's issues? Is the structure faulty?

[Dazz]

This has nothing to do with any for or against for any particular badge on a chassis, but is the fact that Bathurst will have eight pit stops going to completely ruin the race.

Eight pit stops means nine segments, so 17.8 laps on average between fills and a last segment of about that many laps.

That's also potentially eight stops where if you are running behind your team mate you'l be double stacking unless you run one car short, but at the end you have to make sure they will make the last fill no earlier than how many laps you can get from a tank.

Personally I liked it when cars could do more than 32 laps, meaning that anything you got past that meant potentially filling up around lap 129 and having a good 32 lap race to the end.

I have nothing against the fuel they are running but the consumption vs fuel capacity for me is really ruining the races, effectively making them a whole bunch of mini races rather than a true enduro with minimal pit stops.

Is there still a tyre limit or will you be able to throw new tyres on at every stop? If this is so it will take away from even any real need for tyre management.

If there are limited tyres though, I guess you then need to manage them for potentially 36-40 lap stints, which could be interesting, although you'd have to bet on keeping some goodies for the last couple of stints.

But yeah, does anyone else see the mass of pit stops as detracting from the actual continuity and contest of the race?

[RedZedMikey]

Originally Posted by Dazz

But yeah, does anyone else see the mass of pit stops as detracting from the actual continuity and contest of the race?

Yes ... me. This robs the race of the challenge for teams to play out the "do one less pit stop" scenario by fuel conservation, strategy, whatever. Question: Has the 8 pit stop rule been given any compulsory pit stop open/closed windows? Have any minimum pit stop times been set? Could we see a rash of Holden and Ford teams pit on laps 1 (or 2 to avoid double stacking) if they are sure they can get through the race on the other 7 stops? Gives them catch-up opportunity under safety cars.

IF the E70 fuel genuinely gave no power advantage, (and I'm not sure how it could), I think V8SC should have stuck to their guns and allowed it for the 7 DOHC cars.

It's a pity that proper tests couldn't have been scheduled to allow conclusive results to be measured for the "jungle juice", as an open race allowing all pit stop strategies to be played out could have been more interesting.

Both Holden and Ford have played the parity card in previous years when they have been disadvantaged against the other. Pity that Holden/McNamara in particular have forgotten that now.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

Yes ... me. This robs the race of the challenge for teams to play out the "do one less pit stop" scenario by fuel conservation, strategy, whatever. Question: Has the 8 pit stop rule been given any compulsory pit stop open/closed windows? Have any minimum pit stop times been set? Could we see a rash of Holden and Ford teams pit on laps 1 (or 2 to avoid double stacking) if they are sure they can get through the race on the other 7 stops? Gives them catch-up opportunity under safety cars.

I agree completely, this strategy play was always entertaining, 8 stops is just really going to take a lot of the initiative out of it. Think the Fords and Holdens could just stop on every safety car and bring back some of their potential strategic options?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Dazz

This has nothing to do with any for or against for any particular badge on a chassis, but is the fact that Bathurst will have eight pit stops going to completely ruin the race.

Eight pit stops means nine segments, so 17.8 laps on average between fills and a last segment of about that many laps.

That's also potentially eight stops where if you are running behind your team mate you'l be double stacking unless you run one car short, but at the end you have to make sure they will make the last fill no earlier than how many laps you can get from a tank.

Personally I liked it when cars could do more than 32 laps, meaning that anything you got past that meant potentially filling up around lap 129 and having a good 32 lap race to the end.

I have nothing against the fuel they are running but the consumption vs fuel capacity for me is really ruining the races, effectively making them a whole bunch of mini races rather than a true enduro with minimal pit stops.

Is there still a tyre limit or will you be able to throw new tyres on at every stop? If this is so it will take away from even any real need for tyre management.

If there are limited tyres though, I guess you then need to manage them for potentially 36-40 lap stints, which could be interesting, although you'd have to bet on keeping some goodies for the last couple of stints.

But yeah, does anyone else see the mass of pit stops as detracting from the actual continuity and contest of the race?

8 stops? Have I missed an announcement somewhere? All I saw was that the number of stops at Bathurst would be announced some time later.

Back in the day there'd be 2 compulsory stops at Sandown and 3 at Bathurst - wasn't double then and MAY now be double now.

We'll have to wait and see but sincerely hope that an increased number of stops doesn't detract - 8 feels like way too many though.

[AWASP]

Wow 8 pit stops a bit extreme considering that there was only a 7% difference in fuel consumption I would have thought 4 or 5 compulsory fuel stops and I hope they add a couple of tyres due to the degradation they had last yr. I know different car etc but ......

[GTRMagic]

8 stops is silly, but likely to be mandated. The teams only get 8 sets of new tyres so at least 1 set will have been used in practice, qualifying or the race previously...

Surely of E70 brings that back to 6 the whole field should be using it

[Dazz]

I read it in a few places, not sure if it's set in concrete yet but it's "out there" as they say.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226715792863

"All cars will be required to make at least four pit stops during Sunday's Sandown 500.

It is understood eight pit stops will be the mandatory minimum number for Bathurst"

Similar thing here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-0...l-plan/4946882

I know you can't go and stick a 200 litre fuel tank in the cars, but the poor fuel economy on the E85 for me has really made the Bathurst race less interesting.

Seeing which teams could stretch the fuel envelope and really mix up the strategy was always interesting back in the old days. Anyone remember Jim Richards in the Winfield Commodore just going and going and going after all others had stopped for fuel, that really made you think. Pity the tailshaft didn't follow the script that year. Maybe it couldn't handle the extra load of a roll cage full of fuel Jokes ... jokes

I thought the same thing about mandatory stops, if you have to do eight but can do it in six, why not pit on lap one and lap two, get two of them out of the way, and then the inevitable safety cars will get you back in the game during the day as others stop and you stay out there. Overly simplistic but I'll bet teams are crunching numbers on this scenario if it becomes a forced pit race.

[Buckshot]

Originally Posted by Tourer

8 stops? Have I missed an announcement somewhere? All I saw was that the number of stops at Bathurst would be announced some time later.

Maybe the journos have just done the math and though if a 500km race needs 4 stops then a 1000 race will need 8.

[eduardo1]

While it sounds a lot - the teams are already looking at a minimum of 6 stops. Jamie Whincup won it on 6 - David Reynolds was right behind him after stopping 7 times.

The E85 was previously getting an average stint duration of 25 laps so you need at least six stops (the last a half-fill) regardless.

But the new COTF fuel cells have also dropped from 120 to about 112 litre capacity now, so you're looking at dropping another couple of laps off that. So say 23 laps per stint and you get 6 stops but your final run is 23 laps. If you average 22 laps - you're up for a seventh stop.

Of course Safety Cars will intervene etc, but I don't think mandating 8 stops is dramatically changing the nature of the race.

[Dazz]

I just think seven or even eight is a lot different to four, 22 lap stints vs 32/33 lap stints makes a huge difference to strategy, tyre degradation etc.

Not saying using E85 is a bad thing, but the increase in fuel stops for me really take away from the continuity of the actual racing, and does reduce the opportunity for teams to do something a little different during the day to orchestrate a short last fill to possibly gain some time during the last stop.

I just know the odd years we've had a full on 30 odd lap last stint has been nail biting, and with that down to 20 odd laps it just doesn't have the same effect, IMHO.

[Gaz170]

I guess Dick's not looking for Holden backing anytime soon.

[AWASP]

Parity what does it mean ;
Ford going going maybe gone by end of 2014
Holden maybe gone by 2015-16
Merc as quoted by CEO "No results this year No play for 2015"
Nissan no word

IMHO should have taken the DTM option for a world series

[GTRMagic]

Hoping that it proves ultimately incorrect, but noise out of Sandown at the weekend seems to suggest that E70 might be making itself available to at least one manufacturer brand for Bathurst.

I can hear Mr McNamara's politicking machine cranking up from here...

Presuming any of this actually happened