[BTCC] Croft, 29/30 July 2023, Rds. 16/17/18

[thetool]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I suggest that if you think that it's so easy the you should raise the finance and have a go yourself and show them all how it should be done. I look forward to the day when I can see your demonstration of the art of racing.

I don't agree at all with our grammatically-challenged friend but this is the ridiculous ad hominin fallacy arguement.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so you didn't enjoy scenes like this ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRgL9PzHYk8

No, because it's not Touring Car racing, but punting each other off.

Fortunately, a style of driving that BTCC has moved on from.

If that is the style of driving you want to see, then the BTCC is not the place...

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

No, because it's not Touring Car racing, but punting each other off.

that's just your opinion , BTCC even in the early 90s was nearly like this and a big reason why crowed loved it in the 90s

Fortunately, a style of driving that BTCC has moved on from.

If that is the style of driving you want to see, then the BTCC is not the place...

would really love to know viewing figures and spectators cos you know if fans go to something else they will hardly come back and guess what, fewer audience > sponsors lose interest and > teams leave > championship goes down the toilet

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so you didn't enjoy scenes like this ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRgL9PzHYk8

No because that is just punting off (crashing) another driver to pass rather than using skill.
Also, there are two other drivers put at risk if anything had gone wrong with either incident, plus the marshals and the photographers just behind the armco where Neal was forced off at Murrays. Tell me that's completely safe and what you want to see at a race track, because it certainly isn't in my eyes.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Tell me that's completely safe and what you want to see at a race track, because it certainly isn't in my eyes.

if you want ultra safe they shoiuld drop racing alltogether and just to time attacks

[porsche962fan]

another great scene from the past, all cars involved got away with it , could bet a fortune that with NGTC it would not be possible and drivers would be showered with DQ and post race penalties

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuavtUmnD0w

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so you didn't enjoy scenes like this ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRgL9PzHYk8

As much as Neal vs Plato is glorified these days (and not going to lie, I understand why), many of their maneouvres were simply horrid, poor driving standards, having nothing to do with proper, professional motorsport. It's just punting each other deliberately off the track. If you want to see drivers punting others all the time, I'd suggest watching (or participating in) bumper cars, for example. Lots of show. But racing is not about pushing others off.
Touring cars should be aggressive, have contact, and 'rubbing is racing' mentality but there are boundaries. The video you've just sent may be a classic piece of BTCC but at the same time it's just two blokes pushing off each other like amateurs.

I'd rather watch this sort of battle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG7i...nnel=philip82c

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Matt K

I'd rather watch this sort of battle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG7i...nnel=philip82c

not something like this ? agressive but still fair mostly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Trr4RlHKMM

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

not something like this ? agressive but still fair mostly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Trr4RlHKMM

Well, I'm never against aggressive racing - that's what touring cars should be about and, let's be honest, even dramas of the Neal vs Plato sort add some excitement and emotions - something sport should be all about. But at the same time such drama cannot define a championship. If the BTCC drivers knew they could just push their rivals off the track just to make up a position, it'd make the whole championship look a bit silly. Think that some time ago BTCC had a reputation of a demolition derby and I'm not sure if it's ok. When I see some low-tier drivers pushing each other it's not exciting, it's just bad driving standards.

Part of what's been happening recently in the BTCC, and what I saw in today's Race 1 (rest I haven't watched yet) is that the driving standards are simply better, cars are very closely matched with not a lot of artificial variables (well, tyres sometimes are a bit too 'varied' but in R1 it was not that apparent) and this makes racing less 'eventful' at times. How to spice things up is another thing but I wouldn't like to go back to performance weights or drivers simply punting others to gain a position. If Sutton is so good and Motorbase have done a great job prepping the car, fair play to them. It's others task to try and catch up.

[Sodemo]

I’ve long thought that the racing with NGTC is more dull than previous rulesets but I’ve often struggled to figure out why.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I’ve long thought that the racing with NGTC is more dull than previous rulesets but I’ve often struggled to figure out why.

There might be something about it, these cars seem less 'all over the place' than S2000, Super Touring etc. Whatever the reason for that.

[coffinpilot]

What I got from the paddock after speaking to some media people was that HARD asked Hamilton (and the other drivers) for more money and Hamilton baulked at the idea. )Proctor senior was around HARD quite a bit as well today.)
Also on HARD, apparently the water in the DeLeon car was a mix up with a petrol container filled with water used to weigh the awning down had been untied and was accidentally used. Not sure how you could notice the difference in smell though.

[EastonNeston]

I understant the the sum involved was c£50,000 over the contractually agreed figure.
I also understand that Hamilton's car had no preperation work done during the break since the last meeting and would not have been in a fit, or indeed safe, state to drive on Saturday.
The other teams in the series would have done a full rebuild of the cars before setting off for Croft.
While all teams have some staff changes over a season, it's not a good sign when a team appears to have a massive staff turnover every meeting!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

Also on HARD, apparently the water in the DeLeon car was a mix up with a petrol container filled with water used to weigh the awning down had been untied and was accidentally used. Not sure how you could notice the difference in smell though.

Very common error! Those used as weights need to be very clearly marked.

[crmalcolm]

Another great scene from the past, all involved got away without penalties. You could bet a fortune that with NGTC it would not be possible and drivers would be showered with DQ and post race penalties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frE9rXnaHpE

[coppice]

Originally Posted by MrsDoubtfire

Croft is interesting because the Finish Line speed trap times show purely how well the cars accelerate out of the slow speed chicane - one of the best indicators to date of relative power (and weight).

.

I must have missed that chicane somehow , despite being at Croft many days every year. Maybe they replaced the hairpin with a CGI chicane on the TV ? The real chicane is very fast and follows Clervaux and Hawthorn .

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Jon411

I've just been looking at the qualifying speeds at Croft between 2022 and 2023.

The FWD cars are pretty similar - maybe slightly down over Intermediate 1 but Intermediate 2 and the Start/ Finish line are within 0.1mph for the fastest. The slowest is about 5mph up on last year over intermediates 1 and 2 and 0.5mph over the start finish line.

The BMW is 3.3mph slower over Intermediate 1, 0.6mph slower over Intermediate 2 and 1.3mph slower over the start finish line, even if you allow for the tighter track limits it looks like BMW has lost something compared to last year.


Despite Tim Harvey's conviction about Croft being a good RWD track - there has only been 1 BMW win (2020) and 1 Infiniti (2021) victory at Croft over the last 10 races there.

I’m not aware of any extra RWD penalising measures beyond those already known. However their lack of Croft pace is odd. Going back years they would get a great leap out of that hairpin and could be almost alongside a car going into T1.

I still stand by that they should have reviewed those anti-RWD measures this season. All those performance degrading measures when introduced would have surely been done to bring them in line (or just behind?) the leading FWD cars. Now that the leading FWD cars are pretty far ahead, logic would suggest that this should be reviewed.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I’m not aware of any extra RWD penalising measures beyond those already known. However their lack of Croft pace is odd. Going back years they would get a great leap out of that hairpin and could be almost alongside a car going into T1.

I still stand by that they should have reviewed those anti-RWD measures this season. All those performance degrading measures when introduced would have surely been done to bring them in line (or just behind?) the leading FWD cars. Now that the leading FWD cars are pretty far ahead, logic would suggest that this should be reviewed.

The problem is your belief that the FWD cars are "pretty far ahead", when there's nothing to support that fallacy.

Of the five drivers who can realistically win the championship now, two are RWD and three are FWD. That's as equal as you can get dividing 5 by 2.

And four of the last six races have been won by RWD cars.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

I also understand that Hamilton's car had no preperation work done during the break since the last meeting and would not have been in a fit, or indeed safe, state to drive on Saturday.

The car had a new livery for it's appearance at Goodwood FoS, isn't that enough prep?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

another great scene from the past, all cars involved got away with it , could bet a fortune that with NGTC it would not be possible and drivers would be showered with DQ and post race penalties

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuavtUmnD0w

OK, so from that video all we need to do then is make the cars much narrower, shorter & taller than we have now and things will be better!

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

While all teams have some staff changes over a season, it's not a good sign when a team appears to have a massive staff turnover every meeting!

If true this backs up what Paffett Jr was saying at end of last season when he said he had a different engineer every race weekend

Bit of a mess Team Hard at moment

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Adamcas87

If true this backs up what Paffett Jr was saying at end of last season when he said he had a different engineer every race weekend

Bit of a mess Team Hard at moment

From memory Lloyd has been through three so far from what he's said on his YouTube videos.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Adamcas87

Bit of a mess Team Hard at moment

"at the moment"? I though "bit of a mess" was pretty standard for HARD? It's clearly an operation that runs very much on a shoestring compared with some of the other teams and every component is maxed out in terms of life where possible - hence their reliability issues. I guess with inflation being as high as it is the team is burning through their budget faster than expected and they've got no contingency money.

Regarding the Croft RWD 'advantage' I'm sure I remember something about the track being resurfaced and the new tarmac negating some of the RWD advantage?

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

"at the moment"? I though "bit of a mess" was pretty standard for HARD? It's clearly an operation that runs very much on a shoestring compared with some of the other teams and every component is maxed out in terms of life where possible - hence their reliability issues. I guess with inflation being as high as it is the team is burning through their budget faster than expected and they've got no contingency money.

Yeah I agree, also don’t understand why they are trying to run 6 cars on a shoestring and ok probably didn’t cost much but wasting money on having a one of livery at goodwood

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

I understant the the sum involved was c£50,000 over the contractually agreed figure.
I also understand that Hamilton's car had no preperation work done during the break since the last meeting and would not have been in a fit, or indeed safe, state to drive on Saturday.
The other teams in the series would have done a full rebuild of the cars before setting off for Croft.
While all teams have some staff changes over a season, it's not a good sign when a team appears to have a massive staff turnover every meeting!

So… presumably he’s not coming back?