Brabham BT18

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by RAP on the Lola Mk 5 thread

I have seen a programme for Snetterton 8 June 69 that has a few chassis numbers hand-written including ... Keith Wilson Brabham BT18 FFord AM30

That's a new one isn't it?

[David Irwin]

Based on the AM number I would say it's either a BT15 or16 and formerly belonging to Cap Chenoweth, Vermont, USA. I would need to see some pics of the engine bay and know it's engine bay length. Did it have the larger rear uprights?

David Irwin
Evergreen, CO

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

A feature on John Bridges (AS 17 Jan 1969 p25) says he bought a BT18 for 1966 (having sold his ex-Bloor BT14 to John Davies). He retained this for 1967, briefly fitting an injected Vegantune twin cam, and sold it to Frank Williams at the end of that year.

Chris - does this help your Frank Williams BT18 jigsaw or just complicate it?

David McK has just been straightening out my new Tasman records and has pointed out that Brownlie's 1968 Tasman car was a BT18/BT23 numbered F3-J-66, not a BT23 as has been recorded elsewhere. The car was bought from Frank Williams and first appeared at Pukekohe at the beginning of November 1967. It was fitted with a "brand new" 1.5-litre Vegantune twin-cam according to Vercoe. I know Vegantune twin-cams weren't exactly rare in late 1967 but it might not be a concidence.

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

David McK has just been straightening out my new Tasman records and has pointed out that Brownlie's 1968 Tasman car was a BT18/BT23 numbered F3-J-66, not a BT23 as has been recorded elsewhere. The car was bought from Frank Williams and first appeared at Pukekohe at the beginning of November 1967. It was fitted with a "brand new" 1.5-litre Vegantune twin-cam according to Vercoe. I know Vegantune twin-cams weren't exactly rare in late 1967 but it might not be a concidence.

David McK didn't say the car was bought from Frank Williams

[allenbrown]

Sorry. I edited in a full stop where there had been a commas. Everything from "The car was bought" is from Vercoe and now established to be tosh.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

So what's this one I wonder, BT18?

Sport Auto No. 88 May 1969

Less expensive than a Formula France, rebuilt shocks etc, only one hill climb.

(the type is a bit small, not sure if I copied it correctly)

I just found the almost identical advert in Echappement May 1969, the only addition being "Urgent, cause achat Formula 2". I think 'dédouanée' here means cleared through customs.

His one hillclimb appeaes to have been Ampus where he was a dismal 37th, fifth in the poorly-supported G8/9 class and well down in Faure's JEFA which would have had the same engine. At Aquitane, Gache was said to have a F2 McLaren but as Fontes (Bayardo?) was said to have one too, this might be a typo.

[allenbrown]

Sorry - I missed one - Gache (F2 Brabham) and Fontes (ex-Schlesser F2 McLaren) both at La Roquette 16 Mar 1969 but neither completed the course. Gache's engine went, which might explain the 1600cc Gordini.

[Andrew Fellowes]

From the Brabham Owners Forum that some may not have seen, Bryan has already answered the question below.

I’ve got a steering wheel and instrument panel with "F2-45-66" plate.
These are remains of a BT which was physically written off by Mitsubishi Motors(Colt) for accounting sake. The car must have been delivered new to Honda and then changed hands to Mitsubishi Motors to create Colt F2/F3. Ex-Racing manager of Colt presented these parts to my father back in mid 70s.

My question is whether it is from BT18 or BT16/A.
I know earlier production(smaller number) F2 of '66 are BT18s, but Honda ordered series of (20 or 21)BT16/A for their school car in Suzuka, and some of us believes it is one of them.
Taiju Kobayashi

[Leif Rideout]

Hello all, I'm still collecting data/tech info on my BT-18 but heard this recently so I thought I'd check with you....are the rotors for a BT-18 from Triumph Spitfires and for a BT-21 from a Triumph GT-6? Maybe a silly notion but thought I'd ask since my 18 needs new fronts. Thanks, Leif Rideout, Santa Cruz, California

[Michel Rechede]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Raymond Rispal has a 1966 Brabham, so presumably a BT18, in French hillclimbs in 1975. Rispal, who was by then 65 years old, had been running a Brabham in the FL category since 1971 or even earlier.

Allen
A friend of mine could read in the seventies on the Rispal's Brabham chassis plate: FJ-2-63 ( the ex Olson, Martel's car)but I dont know if Raymond Rispal had only one Brabham...
I hope it can help you,
Michel

[allenbrown]

That's wonderful Michel. Thanks.

Did your friend note any other chassis numbers on cars in the 1970s? I am also researching French hillclimbs for publication on OldRacingCars.com and I have a list of 51 "interesting" cars in those events in 1975 alone. Any real chassis plate observations would be extremely useful.

Allen

[Michel Rechede]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

That's wonderful Michel. Thanks.

Did your friend note any other chassis numbers on cars in the 1970s? I am also researching French hillclimbs for publication on OldRacingCars.com and I have a list of 51 "interesting" cars in those events in 1975 alone. Any real chassis plate observations would be extremely useful.

Allen

Allen,
There was some Brabhams in the french hill climbs in the 1970's, I know only that Michel Pont, Roger Anzemberg, Gérard Privé had the same "Brabham F2"
in fact it was the Jo Schlesser's BT2 with a Lotus twin cam engine that I own to day (FJ-5-62). The history of that car is now complete after 15 month of investigations with 9 owners through 46 years.
The other Brabham I know is the BT21C-6 that I purchased from Tim Barrington in UK 4 years ago

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Sorry - I missed one - Gache (F2 Brabham) and Fontes (ex-Schlesser F2 McLaren) both at La Roquette 16 Mar 1969 but neither completed the course. Gache's engine went, which might explain the 1600cc Gordini.

1970: Motoring News described Gilbert Bec's BT18 as 'ex Gache/ex Gethin' [if so then F2.10.66] There is a Philippe Gache in a Brabham in F3 in 1969. Might he be related to your Daniel Gache?

Chris

[allenbrown]

Andrew spoke to Daniel Gache recently but Gache couldn't remember owning a BT18 at all. He thought he'd only ever had the BT30.

The article said he'd bought a BT18 to replace his BT15. I'm going back the garage to re-check that. Maybe the article was about Philippe Gache.

Allen

[allenbrown]

I hope nobody will mind that I've ripped this from TNF.

Originally posted by Jerry Entin

This is from Riverside 1966 ARRC Race Nov. 27, 1966.
This race was won by Don Morin in the #101 Brabham and the pole-sitter was Dr. Lou Sell in a LeGrand. Lou Sell was a DNF.
photo Davey Jordon collection- research Rick Hayden

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I think it's a BT15/BT16 front left, maybe McMillan; Sell in a LeGrand on the right; a BT18 on the left of the second row, maybe Morin; and on the right of the second row is a car that could be (just maybe - I'm not doing very well so far this evening!) the F1 Brabham BT7 of McIntosh. Morin had had a very quick FB Brabham earlier in 1966; McMillan a FB Ausca-Alfa; McMillan a FA Elva-Corvair.

Jerry - if you're here - do you have a larger scan of this picture?

Allen

Originally posted by Chris Townsend


Fred Opert's stock list for 27 November 1969 has a Brabham BT18 for sale, described as "ex Don Morin national champion". As far as I can see 1966 was the only year when Morin won either at ARRC or his regional championship

Chris

I missed your post Chris. Putting the bits together, the Brabham in which Morin won the 1966 Run-Offs and also the "1966 F2" Brabham that he drove at Bridgehampton in 1967 must be an ex-F2 BT18.

But which one? There weren't that many F2 BT18s and most are seen again in 1967. The ex-Winkelmann/Rees F2-23-66? Of course it could all be a red herring and it's an ex-F3 BT18 or even an upgraded BT15.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Just to remind myself of the F2 BT18s:

F2-5-66 Fletcher continues into 1967
F2-7-66 Ahrens then vanishes
F2-18-66 Brabham/works ends up in Ireland with Kevin Murphy?
F2-19-66 Hulme/works - may have gone to Honda museum
F2-22-66 Winkelmann/Rindt stays in UK?
F2-23-66 Winkelmann/Rees maybe later the Tommy Reid car

I won't pretend I'm entirely clear on the lives of F2-22-66 and F2-23-66.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I have an "ex-Winkelmann Brabham BT18" mystery in Ireland in 1969 with Tommy Reid. He seemed to use it as a backup car to his BT23 with a Ford t/c.

Anyone have anything on this car?

Allen

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Goes to John Smith in 1970
Who is still around in Northern Ireland...
What's said to be the Rindt car first shows up in England in 1972 with Paul Brindley in libre, so this could be the Rees car. Smith might remember who he sold it to.

Chris

Another link in the chain - Motoring News 15 May 1969 p24 refers to this car as ex-Reg Armstrong. We have nothing on Armstrong on this thread but David McKinney in the other place calls his car (in 1967) F2-22-66.

[allenbrown]

Another attempt at the F2 BT18s:

F2-5-66 Fletcher continues into 1967
F2-7-66 Ahrens then vanishes
F2-18-66 Brabham/works - Kevin Murphy 1967-69 - still in Ireland 1972
F2-19-66 Hulme/works - may have gone to Honda museum
F2-22-66 Winkelmann/Rindt - Armstrong ... Tommy Reid ... UK for llbre?
F2-23-66 Winkelmann/Rees then vanishes

So I now have my money on F2-23-66 as the Don Morin car.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

You can also eliminate F2-6-66 It came back from Sweden 6 or so years ago and is sitting in the roof of my pals workshop awaiting restoration

F2-6-66 was restored by new owner Jon Waggitt and has been campaigned in Historic races in the UK for a couple of years.

[William Taylor]

Hi, I'm new to this group although do know a couple of the postees through business etc.

I am in the USA and have recently bought a BT18 and believe it is F2-18-66. Now there's a statement! Of course it doesn't have a chassis plate but it does have an AM number on the rear of the frame (131) and the letters JB ?stamped alongside ???

I have been trying to trace the cars history and have been told that it came from Ireland in the early 70's. It is first recorded in an SCCA logbook in 1975.

Can anyone explain any of the statements that this chassis number was run in the UK during 1967-69, which of course prove it didn't go to Honda! I have been trying to track down Vivian Candy the last reputed owner listed in the forum discussions over the last few years but had no luck. Any ideas?

One rumour is that the Honda cars were longer in the engine bay, is this true? Can anyone measure the engine bay on their car for me, and or the wheelbase and length of a top rear radius rod. This may help prove, or disprove this statement that I was told by someone!

I look forward to hearing from some of the group and learning more about the history of the BT18s.

Thanks, William Taylor

[Chris Townsend]

William

Welcome to the forum
We know that 18 was Brabham's chassis in 1966 thanks to period observations by Formula 1 Research Group [F1R] who published it in one of their 'black books' [records of F1/F2 races with chassis numbers real or inferred for most cars] 1966 observations were mostly real.

We then have Autosport 10 November 1967 describing Kevin Murphy's BT18 as 'ex Jack Brabham'. Brabham ran two Honda engined cars in 1966 but the other was the prototype BT21 [F2.20.66] which wnet to John Kendall when Murphy is running his car.

What are the names of the owners in your logbook?

Chris

[William Taylor]

Chris,

Thanks for the response.

I have an SCCA logbook started on 2/2/75 which unfortunately has no event entries where the owner/drivers name would be written! Why dont people fill in the ownership details at the back of the booklet !!!!

On 9/9.80 a new logbook was issued and the car was raced in June of 82 by someone I think called Jerry R Bookham (Minnesota?) in the West Michigan Nationals event. Unfortunately the writing is poor and Jerry R Boo...... is all that is clear.

The car was bought by a dealer Dave Gransee in 87 and sold to John Arnold in Colorado in 88. Thats who I got it from. Ted Walker knows John and has I think discussed the car with him a while back.

Regards, William

[William Taylor]

Chris,

Thanks for the response.

I have an SCCA logbook started on 2/2/75 which unfortunately has no event entries where the owner/drivers name would be written! Why dont people fill in the ownership details at the back of the booklet !!!!

On 9/9.80 a new logbook was issued and the car was raced in June of 82 by someone I think called Jerry R Bookham (Minnesota?) in the West Michigan Nationals event. Unfortunately the writing is poor and Jerry R Boo...... is all that is clear.

The car was bought by a dealer Dave Gransee in 87 and sold to John Arnold in Colorado in 88. Thats who I got it from. Ted Walker knows John and I think discussed the car with him a while ago.

Regards, William

[Ted Walker]

Allen .You seem to have missed Chassis 20 and 29 from your list of F2 18s. Chassis 22 was hillclimbed for a long time by Peter Speakman.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Allen .You seem to have missed Chassis 20 and 29 from your list of F2 18s. Chassis 22 was hillclimbed for a long time by Peter Speakman.

Peter Speakman (Brabham BT18 chassis 22) at barbon Manor in 1984.