Prost or Senna?

[krt917]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I think he drove as good or better that year than at any other time in his career in his battle with Ayrton and, to a lesser degree Mansell (whom i maintain lost a lot of points that could've put him in title contention that year through breakages).

I'm gald you said that - I've always thought that the difference between Prost's and Mansell's results in 1990 was not representative of the gap between them.

I'm not sure whether Prost's best year was 1990, or whether it was more like '85-'86. I think he probably changed a lot in that time - he was probably faster in the early days, but cleverer later on!?

Originally Posted by JulianF

Agreed - both with the above and with KRTs list of Prost's drives. I will also put forward Spa in '86 where Prost was caught up in the startline accident. Came into the pits to be checked out, drove the whole race with a broken engine mount and picked up a 6th place. Enough to keep him in the title hunt at the end of the season....fastest lap too :6/10th faster than anyone else.
Rosberg in the same car and caught in the same accident whipped up the boost and went for it. Blew the engine not long after.........

Cheers Julian! That's one I'd missed. I seem to recall Rosberg saying that what Prost did with that car was unbelievable. It always had too much understeer for Rosberg's press-on style (well, until Adelaide!), but Prost could coax times out of it with his smoother style.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by JulianF

With regards to Alain being given the flick from Renault, wasn't there some rumour at the time that he was "friendly" with one of the wives of Reggie senior management; this also contributing to his demise? Getting OT though......


Cheers
JulianF

Renault was managed by Gerard Larrousse.

You need to ask Mrs Larrousse where she was on the morning of the Dutch Grand Prix in 1983

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by krt917

I'm gald you said that - I've always thought that the difference between Prost's and Mansell's results in 1990 was not representative of the gap between them.

I'm not sure whether Prost's best year was 1990, or whether it was more like '85-'86. I think he probably changed a lot in that time - he was probably faster in the early days, but cleverer later on!?

I think i've only suggested 1990 as a stand out because i can't remember much farther back than that!!

I wasn't as keen on F1 between 85-89 for whatever reason. I think it was because F3000 had begun and as far as i was concerned wiped the floor with F1 for spectacle!

But i can recall Prost's almost faultless performances at the wheel of the Tag engined cars for 3 years and still doing wonders when the Honda powered Williams' and arguably the 87/88 Ferrari took over just to keep in touch with them in the championship.

I'd guess it was a combo of his delicacy on the throttle, optimal fuel consumption and his ability to be incredibly quick despite not being all that spectacular?

[Ginetta]

Originally Posted by Ginetta

I'm not shy about my age. but if I tell you it will give safc_fans age away and he might be more bashful

He given his age away on another thread. So yes I'm 18

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yeah but statistics say Schuey is the best driver ever and i quite confident that ain't right!

Quite right, as Schuey may have most wins and championships etc., but that's not statistics. However, the statistics do show that 4 drivers stand head and shoulders above the rest, Fangio, Ascari, Clark and Schumacher.

And Senna and Prost come out about equal if you look at it in an anorakish way....

Ultimate records aren’t a true reflection, especially with the ever increasing number of F1 races on the calendar compared to years gone by.
Better to look at the percentage statistics against number of races, as a more accurate reflection.
On that basis, Prost and Senna are very evenly matched, only Senna’s pole gaining speciality standing out as dramatically different. But conversely, considering this scintilating one lap pace of his, he didn’t have many fastest laps to his name, and oddly, actually has a pretty poor record in that respect. Of the 13 multiple world champions, only Nelson Piquet, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill and Emerson Fittipaldi had worse fastest lap figures. Correspondingly, Prost had one of the lowest DNF percentages, only bettered by Fangio and Schumacher.



Race Wins: Senna = 25.5% : Prost = 25.8%
Podiums: Senna = 49.7% : Prost = 53.5%
Pole: Senna = 40.4% : Prost = 16.7%
Fastest Lap: Senna = 12.4% : Prost = 20.7%
DNF: Senna = 31.1% : Prost = 26.8%
Victory, Pole & Fastest Lap: Senna = 5.0% : Prost = 4.0%
Wins/Finishes: Senna = 36.9% : Prost = 35.2%
Podiums/Finishes: Senna = 72.1% : Prost = 73.1%

[safc_fan89]

There are always some stats that favour one driver; you can never find the truly greatest driver unless they top every single stat.

And Ginetta, I have seen highlights of the 'Prost and Senna years' from 1987 to 1993, so I think I have a pretty good idea of that stage of their battle. I think perhaps Senna's greatest season was 1993 as his car was so much slower than the Williams and he somehow won 5 times in it. Michael Andretti showed that it was not a great car.

[We Love Osella]

But then Mika got in the same car and outqualified Senna

[safc_fan89]

And crashed later. Senna had retired because of an engine problem or something if I remember correctly. Can't remember if Senna had got ahead by then.

[We Love Osella]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

And crashed later. Senna had retired because of an engine problem or something if I remember correctly. Can't remember if Senna had got ahead by then.

The fact was that Mika, jumped into Michaels car and went faster than Ayrton

[safc_fan89]

So? Senna then won at Japan and Australia.

[safc_fan89]

And didn't Eddie Irvine outqualify Michael Schumacher at Australia 1996, their first race for Ferrari?

[We Love Osella]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

So? Senna then won at Japan and Australia.

Safc_fan, you're the one that accuses Ginetta of starting arguments on message boards, you're just as bad

[safc_fan89]

That's not relevant to this discussion.

[We Love Osella]

I'm sorry but it is. You're the one trying to start an argument. Once again when the facts are laid down before you, you run away. I used to like you, but my mind is being changed by your continuous sniping at things you don't agree with

[safc_fan89]

It's not really a big deal that Hakkinen outqualified Senna. Hakkinen is/was a great driver which was proved by him recovering from a near-fatal crash to win the F1 championship twice. All I'm saying is that Hakkinen didn't then outperform Senna in the last 2 races. Consistency is important.

[We Love Osella]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

It's not really a big deal that Hakkinen outqualified Senna. Hakkinen is/was a great driver which was proved by him recovering from a near-fatal crash to win the F1 championship twice. All I'm saying is that Hakkinen didn't then outperform Senna in the last 2 races. Consistency is important.

It is when you think that Mika had jumped in to the McLaren cold

[safc_fan89]

Wasn't he McLaren's test driver? It's not as if he was unfamiliar to the car.

[We Love Osella]

but he was unfarmiliar with the circuit, Ayrton had won there

[safc_fan89]

Ok. I have praised Hakkinen in the past for outqualifying Senna in his fiorst race for Mclaren, but this doesn't really have much to do with who was better out of Prost and Senna! Prost was outperformed by Hill several times in 1993 also.

[We Love Osella]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Ok. I have praised Hakkinen in the past for outqualifying Senna in his fiorst race for Mclaren, but this doesn't really have much to do with who was better out of Prost and Senna! Prost was outperformed by Hill several times in 1993 also.

Right then, I've seen both of them race, in the flesh so to speak. As far as who was the best, it all came down to attitude, If Prost had the team round him he was brilliant. Senna went into a world of his own, he didn't have to have yes men surrounding him. What I will say and this will be my final word on this. If you put them in equal machinery, in a foreign enviroment, Prost would try and get the politics going and Senna would get the engine going. As to who was the better driver, you would have to take results from when they were team mates and only then

[Kicking-back]

1 championship each in that period - so impossible to separate them, which I think is a far assessment

[TEAM78]

Out of these two guys Senna was the best, (its a baised view and a personal view of mine).
The rivalry between these two guys was just electric, you wouldnt even dare blink when these guys were racing not forgeting Nigel Mansel in all this. They all did some amazing overtaking, great stuff

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by TEAM78

Out of these two guys Senna was the best, (its a baised view and a personal view of mine).
The rivalry between these two guys was just electric, you wouldnt even dare blink when these guys were racing not forgeting Nigel Mansel in all this. They all did some amazing overtaking, great stuff

Each of them also had Schumacher-esq levels of domination too. Not every race was fought tooth and nail as you suggest.

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by We Love Osella

Right then, I've seen both of them race, in the flesh so to speak. As far as who was the best, it all came down to attitude, If Prost had the team round him he was brilliant. Senna went into a world of his own, he didn't have to have yes men surrounding him. What I will say and this will be my final word on this. If you put them in equal machinery, in a foreign enviroment, Prost would try and get the politics going and Senna would get the engine going. As to who was the better driver, you would have to take results from when they were team mates and only then

That means they are fairly equal.

[Gt_R]

I would say both men are relatively on par. Both men employ very different methods to achieve the ultimate performance. Hence, while some fans argue on a strength of one, the others argue on strengths of the other driver.

Add up their strengths and weaknesses, what you get are 2 different but similar drivers, and it's down to whether external cirumstances suiting one style over the other.

The reason why Senna seem to have an edge in people's mind is more because as a driver, his skills and story are sort of "dramatized" and made to look out of this world, while maintaining a very human-approach of turning to religion or whatever beliefs. It made people connect to his "image" more than Prost's comparatively machine and professional mechanical approach.

But in reality and skills, with all circumstances equal, i would objectively rate both guys are right up there with the greats and very much in the same range.