Is V8 supercar killing Australian motorsport?

[Aarrgh8]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

but Donald K. Thompson who ran the Warwick Farm meetings and had other roles in motorsport, had a big problem with it.

Johnny, I think you're confusing Donald K Thomson with Geoff Sykes. Donald Thomson was president of CAMS, and Geoff Sykes was the president of the AARC, promoters of Warwick Farm. You're right about them being against advertising on cars. Both were definitely from the old school, and while both were good in their respective roles, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming (figuratively) towards the '80s. Neither ever really made it. I don't think either man would know what to make of the role advertising plays in motor sport these days.

[hoffy]

Good post Rombles, good post

[Robert Ryan]

Rombles, if Ross and your post had been on earlier it would have killed a lot of "naive" posts that have been on this forum. Lack of knowledge of the inner workings of the administration of motorsport, appear to be the root course of why so many "whingers" on this forum.

[johnh875]

Rombles I think you’re a bit off the mark. For starters the Fujitsu series is hardly “grass roots”, it is a professional, national competition. I’ll do my best to relate motorsport to league but also include AFL as I am more familiar with it.

Premier competition: V8SC = NRL = AFL
Second tier: Development V8SC = Reserves = VFL/other state comps
Third tier: Utes?? = U/19s (do they have something like this?) = TAC Cup U/18s
Governing body: Cams = ARL = AFL Commission
“Grass roots”: Club footy = State/club motorsport

The AFL clubs are actively involved in promoting the sport as a whole to the wider community and also lending some support to the grass roots, eg pre-season comp games held in regional areas, players doing clinics for Auskick primary school comp, Auskick games at half time of AFL games, and also money that goes in to various areas.

I don’t think anyone would say that NRL (or AFL) is responsible to football as a whole, but they certainly need to be involved in promoting/fostering league. On the motorsport side of things substitute V8SC and circuit racing rather than “motorsport as a whole” including rallying, drags, drifting, etc. Ie it is in V8SC’s interest that circuit racing “as a whole” is healthy.

There is a difference in V8SC of course as the national rounds are only in one location as opposed to footy having multiple games per (weekly) round, and there isn’t really an equivalent of the AMRS or Cams national series (or Procar when it existed) in footy. However there is certainly room given the less frequent schedules for all of these series to co-exist, both logistically and from a fan’s point of view.

And it would only require a bit of cooperation between Cams, series and category organizers for there to be a coherent schedule that would benefit all parties and be accessible to fans (and sponsors). I'm not sure in which parallel universe this would occur though...

[johnny yuma]

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[David Towe]

Originally Posted by David Towe

IMHO the VESA mentality of wanting to take motor racing to street circuits is also harming motor racing in another way. That is financially, permanent circuits like Oran Park, QR, Sandown etc. would surely derive a lot of there annual revenue from hosting a V8 round. If they are taken away from these permanent circuits their entry fees and gate fees will have to go up at other events in order to recover these missing $$$$. How much would VESA then rebate back to the circuits to compensate them for the impact of losing a round??? Maybe Mathew Ronke would like to comment on this.

I guess that I upset a few people on here with a previous post, I didn't intend to. My outspokeness has always got me in trouble. The question above was relevant to the thread though.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by David Towe

I guess that I upset a few people on here with a previous post, I didn't intend to. My outspokeness has always got me in trouble. The question above was relevant to the thread though.

Dave...I don't care how many people you upset....it needs to be said.

Who the hell (besides CAMS, AASA, Wakefield etc) is out there looking after the permanent circuits ??

Temporary circuits are great at bringing races to the masses....but, without the permanents to provide the training grounds etc.....we are dead in the water

[peckstar]

dont the permanent circuits speak for themselves, they are limited in their amount and as a result have control other who races there and how much it costs etc.

look at the recent QLD round, the track makes big money out of having a v8 round there, but it still jacked up the prices for the support catagories so that it could make even more money.

For too many years the tracks raped motorsport for their own profit (generalisation im sure it wasnt every track), V8SA just gave the the teams in a major drawcard, some say and allowed them to get some money back

[rustyinsthoz]

Originally Posted by peckstar

For too many years the tracks raped motorsport for their own profit

All you have to do is insert 'V8 Supercars' for the word tracks and you have the same thing still going on. The more things change the more things stay the same.

[Rombles1]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Dave...I don't care how many people you upset....it needs to be said.

Who the hell (besides CAMS, AASA, Wakefield etc) is out there looking after the permanent circuits ??

Temporary circuits are great at bringing races to the masses....but, without the permanents to provide the training grounds etc.....we are dead in the water

Wouldn't you be just as "dead in the water" if you didn't "bring the masses"? No crowds = no return on sponsorship $$$ = less sponsorship $$$ = less people able to compete. Sponsors are more likely to support something like Clipsal 500 that gets (insert large crowd numbers here) people in, rather than Mallala where you get (insert much smaller crowd number here). Some would suggest that V8SC are a drain on the sponsorship which would otherwise be available to other forms of motorsport. I don't agree. What proof is there that sponsors of V8SC teams would be spending their $$$ on other, less watched, forms of motorsport if the V8's were not there? Plus I would have thought that if a Saloon Car competitor can say they are racing in the Clipsal 500 support events, it would make it easier for them to get sponsors than if they were just racing at Mallala.

The increased sponsorship available through "bringing racing to the masses" makes additional racing possible. Without sponsorship you limit motorsport competition to the rich, those who can fund their own racing hobby. There is no professional motorsport without sponsorship.

If you believe that motorsport would be better off having Rich Person A racing against Rich Person B at Mallala, being watched by two mechanics, their wives, Clem Smith and Oaksnaf (cos he'll watch anything with wheels that races), rather than having 250K + crowds at the Clipsal 500.... well, I suspect that only Rich Person A and Rich Person B would prefer that - and even then they would be trying to get onto the grid at the Clipsal as well.

On the other hand I agree that there is a need for permanent circuits as well. A completely street-based championship would not be a good thing. Therefore I would like to see V8SC racing both at the Clipsal 500 and Mallala. (unless either Rich Person A or Rich Person B decides to build a permanent track SOUTH of Adelaide!)

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Rombles1

Wouldn't you be just as "dead in the water" if you didn't "bring the masses"? No crowds = no return on sponsorship $$$ = less sponsorship $$$ = less people able to compete.

Who said there are no crowds at permanent facilities ?

Originally Posted by Rombles1

Sponsors are more likely to support something like Clipsal 500 that gets (insert large crowd numbers here) people in, rather than Mallala where you get (insert much smaller crowd number here).

Mallala offers much more to motorsport as a whole though, where as the current street race set up, offers returns to the Government and Vesa. Good to see we support the needy.

Originally Posted by Rombles1

The increased sponsorship available through "bringing racing to the masses" makes additional racing possible.

What additional racing has been made possible thanks to street racing. All we have seen is that promoters are charging support categories top dollar to get on these events.

Originally Posted by Rombles1

On the other hand I agree that there is a need for permanent circuits as well. A completely street-based championship would not be a good thing. Therefore I would like to see V8SC racing both at the Clipsal 500 and Mallala.

Didnt one say on this forum (maybe Pete or GTR) that the SA events board or who ever signed a deal with vesa saying the only SA race they would compete in would be the street race.

How that helps anything, god only knows.

[Alan 52]

The decision not to race at the Grand Prix ranks second to their decision to go to China at the expense of a race in Australia as the best statement of how The Artist operates solely in the interest of 14 Level 1 Franchise holders and has no regard for anything else in Australian motor sport.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Alan 52

The decision not to race at the Grand Prix ranks second to their decision to go to China at the expense of a race in Australia as the best statement of how The Artist operates solely in the interest of 14 Level 1 Franchise holders and has no regard for anything else in Australian motor sport.

And that is his job. Why do you think he is responsible for the well being of all Australian motorsport? Isn't that was CAMS' job.

[D.R.T.]

I dont think anyone is saying Avesco are responsible for motorsport, what people are saying is that the position that they are in, they should not be harming motorsport through such avenues as street races and OS events.

[David Towe]

Apart from the fact that most of the Clipsal circuit is the old F1 circuit and is an obvious drawcard, what else about Clipsal can't be transfered to a permanent circuit? I drove both of my cars there on display laps a couple of years ago and admit it was a thrill to do so, but it is a very daunting place to drive at speed let alone race around it.
They were trying to get a race for Group A and C on the Clipsal programme and when they approached the competitors, there were many who said with a great deal of reservation that they would race there, for the record I said no. It's not that I don't think I can handle it, but one mistake by me or someone else and I could smash $250,000 worth of car. I'm not brave enough to front the wife and try to explain that one.
How many other support category drivers could afford it when we hear the level one V8 teams bleating about repair bills from Clipsal and Indy. Therefore it becomes not a true display of racing ability from these guys but a high speed cautious drive with their fingers and toes crossed. How can that be good for competitors and therefore the paying public?

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by peckstar

look at the recent QLD round, the track makes big money out of having a v8 round there, but it still jacked up the prices for the support catagories so that it could make even more money.

Did the track set the entry fee for the support categories or VESA ?
I'm led to believe it is VESA that sets it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[peckstar]

the track sets the fees

the track pay V8SA a large amount of money to come and run there. but the track are the promoter

there are other rounds eg tassie & PI where V8SA (events) are the promoter and they pay the track a large sum of money to have the race there. they would then set fees for other classes


but at QR it was the track/promoter who decide how much fees are

[Tony C]

Well I did open a can of worms with this thread, I can see the arguments from all sides which makes it hard do decide what is right and what is wrong because each case has valid points.

Everyone picks on Cochran, does anyone 'know' what is position is? Is he a shareholder? Can he or his company be dumped?

That could be interesting if Cochran was dumped!

[Onlooker]

One thing that the V8's have added to the sport is a massive increase in the number of people who are now able to draw a wage from the sport. in the early 90's there would have been around 200 people empoloyed full time in a race team enviroment. This figure would have to be around 1000 plus now.

What does that do for the sport, well in the past unless you were racing a Group A touring car, chances were there very little outlets that allowed you to get your car professionally prepared and turn up and race, nowdays in Development Series, F3,FF, Cup cars,Utes,Lotus ( well not now) etc all have teams that will do all the grunt work for you to allow you to turn up and race.
This must have a flow on effect of getting more cars out there on teh track and so more racing persay.
I wonder if some one at Cams could tell us how many extra licenses are now out there compared with say 15 years ago , I would think alot more are actually driving instead of dreaming about it.

I doubt club racing has dwindled at all and the crowds at the CAMS series are probally not that much smaller than the crowds at some of the touring car events held 15 years ago , so what has been done then is to completely create a whole new group of cars above what was already there and created alot of jobs ?

What do you guys think ?

[johnny yuma]

I think theres no such thing as a free lunch and if there are 1000 jobs in the V8 circus the spectators and support categories are paying their wages.

No circuit events attract even a reasonably big crowd any more except V8SC
and all-weekend historics like Shannons Phillip Island Classic.

From the sixties through until about 1994 this was not true,but then along came Tony c.and IMG

[Onlooker]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

I think theres no such thing as a free lunch and if there are 1000 jobs in the V8 circus the spectators and support categories are paying their wages.

No circuit events attract even a reasonably big crowd any more except V8SC
and all-weekend historics like Shannons Phillip Island Classic.

From the sixties through until about 1994 this was not true,but then along came Tony c.and IMG

So who do you think should pay there wages, the goverment. Fine remove the merchansie trucks, tell those demo bikes to hit the road, eliminate ride cars, stop all tours of the workshops and pull down all the grandstands at the tracks, yep that would be a better deal too.

Gee your memory seems alittle different to mine, I seem to recall hardly a sould at plenty of races in the 80's and 90's ( sorry not that old ) and hence the switch to V8's to try and coax the spectator back to the track, then some years later the TC emerged

[Robert Ryan]

Gee your memory seems alittle different to mine, I seem to recall hardly a sould at plenty of races in the 80's and 90's

Yep some of those tracks were pretty barren...things have improved...to an extent.

[pete55]

I went to quiet a few races at Lakeside and Surfers and there were decent crowds there. Getting out of Lakeside was a lot of fun, only took my car once. Got smart after that and rode my motorbike.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

No circuit events attract even a reasonably big crowd any more except V8SC
and all-weekend historics like Shannons Phillip Island Classic.

Well the Austin 7 Club All Historic at Winton usually packs out the place pretty well (not as big as the V8's but still pretty big).

Although I don't consider it motorsport, the Easternats at Sandown usually drags them in and is the main money spinner for Davo each year as he owns and runs that show himself.


The biggest thing to remember is that the money made by the permanent circuits is plowed back into the circuit (in theory anyway) where the street circuits appear out of thin air paid for by the government (tax payers), used for 4 days and disappears a few days later again paid for by the tax payers. Money made gets shoved into the government coffers to help pay for the running of the event but nothing to improve facilities for motorsport.

[johnny yuma]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

So who do you think should pay there wages, the goverment. Fine remove the merchansie trucks, tell those demo bikes to hit the road, eliminate ride cars, stop all tours of the workshops and pull down all the grandstands at the tracks, yep that would be a better deal too.

Gee your memory seems alittle different to mine, I seem to recall hardly a sould at plenty of races in the 80's and 90's ( sorry not that old ) and hence the switch to V8's to try and coax the spectator back to the track, then some years later the TC emerged

Just refresh my memory again onlooker.Which grandstands did V8SC PAY FOR? Which pit facilities?Which track resurfacing?Which carparks?

Surfers Paradise,Amaroo,Oran Park,Winton,Baskerville,Symmons Plains,Calder,AIR,Wanneroo and of course Bathurst and Sandown all attracted good crowds through the 80s and early 90s without V8SC-Not all meetings-there were a lot of minor events at the smaller circuits always.

the dud days were the 2 litre tryhard cars in the rival Bathurst 1000s era.
yes please get rid of the stunts,burnouts etc but the merchandise can stay the kids love it [aged 4 to 40]

And just to refresh your memory V8 Racecars have been a major attraction
since before most of us held a licence.