[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[billy bleach]

"Williams aims to debut car on first day of test" Aims?! I would have thought that is an absolute red line!

[chillibowl]

not sure if this is the article/interview you are referring to but here is a recent article with Claire on autosport.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...t-of-19-delays

obviously nothing is guaranteed but it does sound like the team is ahead of where they were at this point last year....for whatever that is worth.

from the article:

"We've built ourselves a huge amount of contingency time to ensure that if something does go wrong, we're OK and we've got some cover there," Williams added.

"One of the first signs of success for us is that we passed all our crash tests, and most of which we did at the first attempt rather than like last year where we failed many of them: even at the sixth attempt.

of course, whenver it does hit the track, the car still may be pants. interesting times ahead.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

"One of the first signs of success for us is that we passed all our crash tests, and most of which we did at the first attempt rather than like last year where we failed many of them: even at the sixth attempt.

of course, whenver it does hit the track, the car still may be pants. interesting times ahead.

But at least it will be crash test approved pants!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not sure if this is the article/interview you are referring to but here is a recent article with Claire on autosport.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...t-of-19-delays

obviously nothing is guaranteed but it does sound like the team is ahead of where they were at this point last year....for whatever that is worth.

from the article:

"We've built ourselves a huge amount of contingency time to ensure that if something does go wrong, we're OK and we've got some cover there," Williams added.

"One of the first signs of success for us is that we passed all our crash tests, and most of which we did at the first attempt rather than like last year where we failed many of them: even at the sixth attempt.

of course, whenver it does hit the track, the car still may be pants. interesting times ahead.

Grand prix.com - interesting two different takes from two different feeds..fingers crossed all will be well and the Pheonix will rise

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

But at least it will be crash test approved pants!

haha right!

just to add, for me time must have faded the memory of how behind the ball Williams were last year. i cant say i remember about a part failing a required safety test 6 times before they got it right!

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Grand prix.com - interesting two different takes from two different feeds..fingers crossed all will be well and the Pheonix will rise

indeed fingers crossed.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i cant say i remember about a part failing a required safety test 6 times before they got it right!

I also don't remember that detail. To be honest, that is quiet shocking to me. I can imagine failing 2-3 times maybe. But at some point you stop, step back to pause and regroup. What is the saying?

There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.

Clearly when you do it that many times, it is taking more time and money to get it right. That many times it sounds like they were throwing it at the wall to see if it might stick! (no pun intended!) But basically, try again and hope it works right the next time?

Now, the detail I am curious about is, was that six times a full test (with FIA technical delegate present, etc.) or does that include internal testing that failed prior to them doing a real certification test? I can't imagine that is six attempts at certification.

No doubt the crash behavior is simulated (via computer) many times prior to physical testing. I broadly assume that teams will do a physical test in-house prior to doing a sanctioned test? Especially if maybe they are doing something different than normal? And those tests can be mixture of full scale and maybe smaller sections? Just like tunnel testing, they have to correlate reality to how it is modeled on a computer. Such as to make sure deformation happens as expected and provides the right resistance curve.

But, man six times! That seems crazy to me. Even if a mixture of in-house and attempts to get FIA certification.

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I also don't remember that detail. To be honest, that is quiet shocking to me. I can imagine failing 2-3 times maybe. But at some point you stop, step back to pause and regroup. What is the saying?



Clearly when you do it that many times, it is taking more time and money to get it right. That many times it sounds like they were throwing it at the wall to see if it might stick! (no pun intended!) But basically, try again and hope it works right the next time?

Now, the detail I am curious about is, was that six times a full test (with FIA technical delegate present, etc.) or does that include internal testing that failed prior to them doing a real certification test? I can't imagine that is six attempts at certification.

No doubt the crash behavior is simulated (via computer) many times prior to physical testing. I broadly assume that teams will do a physical test in-house prior to doing a sanctioned test? Especially if maybe they are doing something different than normal? And those tests can be mixture of full scale and maybe smaller sections? Just like tunnel testing, they have to correlate reality to how it is modeled on a computer. Such as to make sure deformation happens as expected and provides the right resistance curve.

But, man six times! That seems crazy to me. Even if a mixture of in-house and attempts to get FIA certification.

Richard

Don't forget the genius Paddy Lowe also oversaw the design of an illegal front suspension with too many elements, maybe that compromised strength when it was put right

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Don't forget the genius Paddy Lowe also oversaw the design of an illegal front suspension with too many elements, maybe that compromised strength when it was put right

I guess only the team knows.

To your point, we dont know which test failed. Typically it's the front ones that are hard I think. I believe the only components involved in those tests is the monocoque and front crash structure (internal core of nose). No suspension, wings, etc. So a questionable suspension design "shouldn't" impact the crash testing?

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I guess only the team knows.

To your point, we dont know which test failed. Typically it's the front ones that are hard I think. I believe the only components involved in those tests is the monocoque and front crash structure (internal core of nose). No suspension, wings, etc. So a questionable suspension design "shouldn't" impact the crash testing?

Richard

I did say maybe

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I did say maybe

Sorry, wasn't trying to be dismissive. Thinking about this more, it seems like the team was up against the wall on many front and with limited resources. So they can't devote 100% to all topics. So issues around suspension (such as rushed redesign) may have stolen resources from other things including crash structures? There should be shared resources such as those who know loads through carbon structures.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

...No doubt the crash behavior is simulated (via computer) many times prior to physical testing...

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Don't forget the genius Paddy Lowe also oversaw the design of an illegal front suspension with too many elements, maybe that compromised strength when it was put right

we know that Williams has been underfunded for years so i wonder how far behind they are in their investments/upgrade to their facilities, computer systems, manufacturing equipment etc. people may only be as good as the tools they have available?

for arguments sake, lets say Williams have spent about 100mill less then the average F1 budget every year for the last decade...does that put them at a 1 billion dollar deficit?

i doubt its that much but i would imagine it to still be a large amount. perhaps even an insurmountably large number for the organization, as it currently stands, to ever raise themselves.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

we know that Williams has been underfunded for years so i wonder how far behind they are in their investments/upgrade to their facilities, computer systems, manufacturing equipment etc. people may only be as good as the tools they have available?

for arguments sake, lets say Williams have spent about 100mill less then the average F1 budget every year for the last decade...does that put them at a 1 billion dollar deficit?

i doubt its that much but i would imagine it to still be a large amount. perhaps even an insurmountably large number for the organization, as it currently stands, to ever raise themselves.

I don't think it is about resources, more that some of there internal practices and processes were outdated. They have far greater resources than force India pre the Strolls, but have been outperformed by them in recent years.

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[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

...They have far greater resources than force India pre the Strolls, but have been outperformed by them in recent years.

fair point!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I don't think it is about resources, more that some of there internal practices and processes were outdated. They have far greater resources than force India pre the Strolls, but have been outperformed by them in recent years.

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Although weirdly as soon as their backs come off the wall and a few € are about they go off the pace....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Although weirdly as soon as their backs come off the wall and a few € are about they go off the pace....

I always felt some magic was happening at FI and that it couldn't last forever. They just seemed to have it going better than they should (given their size/budget). I wonder if their recent drama has caught up with them. That there is a delay between positives (new funding) and negatives (drama we all know about) and how it shows up in the car???

Same applies to Williams. If they get themselves back on track (internally) it may take a season or more for that to actually show up on track.

Richard

[Nicholosophy]

Sir Frank is the Team Principal, even if in title only, and I don't see Claire being moved on while he is still around.

I suspect they don't expect much to come from this season. This year's car will likely be a development testbed for 2021 within the confines of the current ruleset.

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[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Nicholosophy

Sir Frank is the Team Principal, even if in title only, and I don't see Claire being moved on while he is still around.

I suspect they don't expect much to come from this season. This year's car will likely be a development testbed for 2021 within the confines of the current ruleset.

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Problem is the whole 'name over the door's thing is more of a hindrance than a help. Interesting to see that Martin Brundle was recently suggesting it was time for Claire to move upstairs and appoint a new team principal with full autonomy.

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[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

haha right!

just to add, for me time must have faded the memory of how behind the ball Williams were last year. i cant say i remember about a part failing a required safety test 6 times before they got it right.

Most likely the front crash structure (the nosebox).

Fairly common practice to make it too light and then literally add one layer of carbon each time until it passes. Stops you making it too heavy.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Problem is the whole 'name over the door's thing is more of a hindrance than a help. Interesting to see that Martin Brundle was recently suggesting it was time for Claire to move upstairs and appoint a new team principal with full autonomy.

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I don't disagree with this.

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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Most likely the front crash structure (the nosebox).

Fairly common practice to make it too light and then literally add one layer of carbon each time until it passes. Stops you making it too heavy.

Boy I sure hope F1 has moved way beyond bush league trial and error engineering. That sounds very 1980s.

Richard

[peebee2]

Maybe, but I’m talking top three teams today.

[Richard C]

New hires at Williams.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ault-designers

I can't navigate/understand the titles of the new guys plus the reshuffling of existing at Williams. So it makes it hard for me to understand the hierarchy and where they fit in. Ideally they should be bringing in some new ideas. Particularly from Red Bull.

No mention of gardening leave. How deep in an org do you have to go before that is not done F1? I assume it's all based upon how the contract is written with the current employer. And that to put that burden upon someone, you have to compensate them. So they just can't do it for everyone as it would get expensive.

Richard

[chunterer]

Hmm, I learnt of these hires the other day. Interesting that a fairly senior Red Bull engineer has joined Williams.

These are ones that have been announced but I suspect Williams are working very hard to bring in more people.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

New hires at Williams.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ault-designers

I can't navigate/understand the titles of the new guys plus the reshuffling of existing at Williams. So it makes it hard for me to understand the hierarchy and where they fit in. Ideally they should be bringing in some new ideas. Particularly from Red Bull.

No mention of gardening leave. How deep in an org do you have to go before that is not done F1? I assume it's all based upon how the contract is written with the current employer. And that to put that burden upon someone, you have to compensate them. So they just can't do it for everyone as it would get expensive.

Richard

gardening leave depends on the seniority of the role and how much secret stuff they know. it’s also part of the employment budget in f1 because it’s so universal, and it’s always paid. bearing in mind paid leave and taking it is universal in europe it’s no different to that really. there’s also the standard non-disclosure agreements that they’re more than happy to act on as well.

there’s a lot of uncertainty at the big silver team at the moment, and a lot more people than usual handing in their notice as a result. i wonder to what extent that’s true at the other teams?

[S griffin]

It shows Williams are still serious and it’s good they are able to persuade the staff. I wish them the best, would be good if they could move up the grid in 2021, if not this year