Lites / LMP3

[wdave0]

I too saw them at Sebring, they look good (except the Gibson which looks "blocky" by comparison) and clearly are competitive in the right hands. It was very heartening to see the Norma on pace first time out. The range of set-up and driver speed was a little large but will probably close up with track time. The spread from the Elans doesn't seem too bad for now - after all the P3s are new to the teams while the Elan teams have plenty of set-up experience.
They sadly sound terrible to me - vintagish cross-crank low rpm V8, not at all race engine sounding. OTOH, this isn't a prime spectator series anyway - it is an entry level team and driver series.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I too saw them at Sebring, they look good (except the Gibson which looks "blocky" by comparison) and clearly are competitive in the right hands. It was very heartening to see the Norma on pace first time out. The range of set-up and driver speed was a little large but will probably close up with track time. The spread from the Elans doesn't seem too bad for now - after all the P3s are new to the teams while the Elan teams have plenty of set-up experience.
They sadly sound terrible to me - vintagish cross-crank low rpm V8, not at all race engine sounding. OTOH, this isn't a prime spectator series anyway - it is an entry level team and driver series.

I quite like the sound, especially under acceleration but get what you're saying.

Exactly on this being an entry level, "feeder" series. Pretty good for that!

[Maelochs]

Oi, another endless and pointless debate featuring our favorite canine.

Look, P3 is what IMSA has chosen. Teams seem to like it, and fans seem to like them.

In old IMSA Lites, the Tpe 2 cars were never in the top five ... at Sebring the Elans ran close---and No Accidents because of it. So that is all BS.

The way I see it, DP02 is the entry-level semi-serious playground for the wealthy and first step for the up-and-coming. Cheap, spec, but enough power and downforce to be dangerous if a driver gets silly---which is important, because it weeds out the silly drivers (crash a few times, money goes away.) And still the cars are sturdy enough that no one gets hurt when they crash. All good.

In the hands of a really skilled driver the Elans can (for now) keep up with the top ten P3s ... I expect that to change as teams learn their cars.

Thing is ... the new PC class is a Great Show. I am sorry, but I watched a lot of Lites and it just wan't inspiring. Maybe good for aficionados but nothing to excite the average fan.

P3s are Hot. They are loud and they have Presence on track. They are compact and powerful (seemingly) and quick enough and loud enough that they Create excitement.

That is what the series needs. Classes which are exciting to watch. Sure, nobody is going to buy a race weekend ticket just because PC is running, but people will watch the races ... and like them, which creates an overall better race-weekend experience.

Nobody buys a St. Pete GP weekend ticket to see the Stadium Super Trucks, but everybody watches them, and everybody likes them. Same principle.

My take is that IMSA wanted to do a couple things: first, get in deeper with FIA so they can leverage the relationship to get DPis to Le Mans some day, and second

make PC into a real series. I am sorry, but Lites was sort of a club series. Spec cars, the slowest class powered by go-kart engines (well, motorcycle engines.)

Nothing wrong with the class, and it did support itself as both a training class and as a playground for the unskilled but wealthy, but anyone looking to step up to a Real prototype sort of needed to go to an FLM09 ... a Lites Elan had half the power.

(Which is why, in Europe, PC was kept as a stand-alone training series.)

IMSA sees the need for a training series, wants the cash from the wealthy amateurs, and also needs to trim the fat. A pure P3 series might not be sufficiently subscribed, and that would mean adding a whole 'nother series to the schedule.

Instead, by dropping Lites 2, and adding P3s, IMSA elevates the Lites series, creates both a playground and a training ground, and keeps the race weekend schedule at the same size.

All sounds pretty smart to me.

I have no doubt that CN is a wonderful series---it is certainly popular all over Europe. But that it Not the way IMSA went, and it never will be. IMSA wants to create the ladder from Elan to P3 to P2/DPi. It wants to support the P3 constructors because they also build all the P2/DPi chassis.

IMSA Could have gone a different way, and maybe in some ways, from some angles, it would have made more sense. However, they went This way, and it also makes sense and seems like a strong step forward.

Let's give it a couple seasons ans see if it withers or grows, eh? I know some of us really like a fight, and will parse every post and attack every space and comma ... but that never seems to help anything, does it?

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Exactly on this being an entry level, "feeder" series. Pretty good for that!

OH>EM>GEE This isn't a feeder series guys.... why can't you get that!!!!

/sarcasm

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Oi, another endless and pointless debate featuring our favorite canine.

Painful, eh?

Look, P3 is what IMSA has chosen. Teams seem to like it, and fans seem to like them.

WRONG! They love them. All the teams I chatted with over the Sebring weekend are excited to get these cars because they know they can do special things.

In old IMSA Lites, the Tpe 2 cars were never in the top five ... at Sebring the Elans ran close---and No Accidents because of it. So that is all BS.

Yeah, because.. things.

The way I see it, DP02 is the entry-level semi-serious playground for the wealthy and first step for the up-and-coming. Cheap, spec, but enough power and downforce to be dangerous if a driver gets silly---which is important, because it weeds out the silly drivers (crash a few times, money goes away.) And still the cars are sturdy enough that no one gets hurt when they crash. All good.

It's served it purpose, much like the FLM09. Like the NFL, motorsport is a game of replacement. It's time to move forward.

In the hands of a really skilled driver the Elans can (for now) keep up with the top ten P3s ... I expect that to change as teams learn their cars.

Totally agree. Two classes, and eventually as it becomes one, it'll be great racing. I bet it'll blow up like GT3 Cup did in it's second year.

Thing is ... the new PC class is a Great Show. I am sorry, but I watched a lot of Lites and it just wan't inspiring. Maybe good for aficionados but nothing to excite the average fan.

Agree. I was actually excited to see them run. Hated the old cars, new cars look like a proper LMP, and that's a big deal for the casual observer.

P3s are Hot. They are loud and they have Presence on track. They are compact and powerful (seemingly) and quick enough and loud enough that they Create excitement.

Yep.

That is what the series needs. Classes which are exciting to watch. Sure, nobody is going to buy a race weekend ticket just because PC is running, but people will watch the races ... and like them, which creates an overall better race-weekend experience.

Wait, you mean support classes are enjoyable to watch?

Nobody buys a St. Pete GP weekend ticket to see the Stadium Super Trucks, but everybody watches them, and everybody likes them. Same principle.

Don't be so sure about that. SST is pretty baller.

My take is that IMSA wanted to do a couple things: first, get in deeper with FIA so they can leverage the relationship to get DPis to Le Mans some day, and second make PC into a real series. I am sorry, but Lites was sort of a club series. Spec cars, the slowest class powered by go-kart engines (well, motorcycle engines.)

It was a club series and one that couldn't be taken seriously. Hence the change.

Nothing wrong with the class, and it did support itself as both a training class and as a playground for the unskilled but wealthy, but anyone looking to step up to a Real prototype sort of needed to go to an FLM09 ... a Lites Elan had half the power.

Yeah, but so does SRF/CSR/DSR etc... it worked, but, needed to see drastic changes.

IMSA sees the need for a training series, wants the cash from the wealthy amateurs, and also needs to trim the fat. A pure P3 series might not be sufficiently subscribed, and that would mean adding a whole 'nother series to the schedule.

BUT IT'S NOT ENTRY LEVEL!!!! BLAAAAARGH!!! Or it totally is.

Instead, by dropping Lites 2, and adding P3s, IMSA elevates the Lites series, creates both a playground and a training ground, and keeps the race weekend schedule at the same size.

And creates business opportunities for teams, sponsors, and the series. Crazy eh?

All sounds pretty smart to me.

Nooooo.... how dare you suggest that IMSACAR did something smart in terms of business. Seems like they've really got something here.

I have no doubt that CN is a wonderful series---it is certainly popular all over Europe. But that it Not the way IMSA went, and it never will be. IMSA wants to create the ladder from Elan to P3 to P2/DPi. It wants to support the P3 constructors because they also build all the P2/DPi chassis.

The DP02 dies at the end of the season. It's all P3 from 2018 onward.

Let's give it a couple seasons ans see if it withers or grows, eh? I know some of us really like a fight, and will parse every post and attack every space and comma ... but that never seems to help anything, does it?

I did this just for you.

GT3 Cup had nobody in it's first year. PC, GTD, all the same... everything takes time. Millenials want instant gratification to point out success or failure because.. you know they have to be right on the internet for the points.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Oi, another endless and pointless debate featuring our favorite canine.

Foxes aren't canines.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Foxes aren't canines.

I guess it isn't all about you all the time then.

Intersting factoid. Thanks.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

OH>EM>GEE This isn't a feeder series guys.... why can't you get that!!!!

/sarcasm

Sarcasm aside, Lites/Challenge IS a feeder series. Though I wouldn't describe it as an entry-level one.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Foxes aren't canines.

False. Vulpini, and Canini are all part of the Canidae family. Regardless of the specifics... they are all part of the same group, with the slight differences coming in the subgroups... they all have similar body types, and physical features.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

False. Vulpini, and Canini are all part of the Canidae family. Regardless of the specifics... they are all part of the same group if you want to be specific.

I'm not going to get into specifics HERE for obvious reasons(WAAAAY too off topic) but I'll send you a little something in PM.

Suffice to say, you're half correct, and the winky face was on the post for a reason.

[FormulaFox]

Some food for thought I just looked in on.

Remember a while back how IMSA was (allegedly) considering making LMP3 a part of the Conti series? Well, I honestly liked that idea. I liked the idea of a feeder championship that was a perfect mirror of the Weathertech series. Now, there are numerous reasons good and bad to have not followed that idea, but I got to wondering during all this arguing about how things would look had that been done.

So I took a look at pole and best race laps from Sebring to see where it'd stand.

ST pole: 2:22.265
GS pole: 2:11.610
P3 pole: 1:56.844

ST best race lap: 2:23.180(posted by 5th place finisher)
GS best race lap: 2:13.333(posted by 8th place finisher)
P3 best race lap: 1:58.955(posted by race winner)

I think it would have slipped in pretty well. That's very similar gap to the one between P and GTLM(slightly bigger, but not by an overly massive degree).

It really would've been a feeder-level version of the Weathertech championship if they'd done that. I think that's kind of cool.

[Maelochs]

The P3 teams would have gotten very irritated by repair costs when the GT cars started leaning on each other and causing pile-ups

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The P3 teams would have gotten very irritated by repair costs when the GT cars started leaning on each other and causing pile-ups

But wouldn't that just make it all the better for preparing them for the Weathertech series? They can learn how to avoid all that crap!

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

OH>EM>GEE This isn't a feeder series guys.... why can't you get that!!!!

/sarcasm

Can I call it support, like a bra or a bro? It's a manzier series.

[TzeiTzei]

I don't see any point in making LMP3 the star of Conti.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

But wouldn't that just make it all the better for preparing them for the Weathertech series? They can learn how to avoid all that crap!

I think your right that on a technical level P3 would have fitted in Conti with its lap times

However I'm not complaining at where it landed

Conti gets to stay 'sports car challenge' with cars that are all based off production models

And we get another series that is now stronger than it was previously

I never watched Proto challenge and now I will

Win win

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I don't see any point in making LMP3 the star of Conti.

I can think of several good reasons -and I mean aside from the "mirror image of Weathertech" idea- but they're all a moot point. If IMSA at any point thought the idea had any merit that's what they would have done for the sake of the bigger spotlight. If my long-term concerns end up being justified IMSA's just going to pull the plug on the LMP3 experiment(and probably the entire series) and move on to something else.

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

And we get another series that is now stronger than it was previously

I never watched Proto challenge and now I will

I fear you may be in a bit of a minority on that. I strongly doubt the LMP3s have the sort of audience appeal many have assumed. I always had a theory about the old PC cars being the sort of class the American race fan could get behind despite it's spec-ness, and while I stand by it's reasoning(you'll be hard-pressed to find an American race fan who didn't appreciate the sound of the PC cars' big 'Murican V8), it proved insufficient a draw. The only noteworthy thing P3 has that PC didn't is variety in the chassis department, and the Ligier dominance(which doesn't look likely to be broken by Norma or Ave-Riley) greatly limits that "benefit." Ligier's done such a good job that the class might as well be as spec as PC at this point.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I can think of several good reasons -and I mean aside from the "mirror image of Weathertech" idea- but they're all a moot point. If IMSA at any point thought the idea had any merit that's what they would have done for the sake of the bigger spotlight. If my long-term concerns end up being justified IMSA's just going to pull the plug on the LMP3 experiment(and probably the entire series) and move on to something else.



I fear you may be in a bit of a minority on that. I strongly doubt the LMP3s have the sort of audience appeal many have assumed. I always had a theory about the old PC cars being the sort of class the American race fan could get behind despite it's spec-ness, and while I stand by it's reasoning(you'll be hard-pressed to find an American race fan who didn't appreciate the sound of the PC cars' big 'Murican V8), it proved insufficient a draw. The only noteworthy thing P3 has that PC didn't is variety in the chassis department, and the Ligier dominance(which doesn't look likely to be broken by Norma or Ave-Riley) greatly limits that "benefit." Ligier's done such a good job that the class might as well be as spec as PC at this point.

I get your point but I wasn't speaking of audience size I was speaking of personal interest

[Maelochs]

I think IMSA would be idiots to mess with Conti. it has been their strongest, most solid performer since the turn of the century pretty much (as Firehawk, maybe? That was a long time ago.)

Why would it be a benefit to make Conti a "mirror image" of WSC? What would be the benefit of taking two distinct products---one with a strong history and a strong following---and making them into versions of one product---and the least popular of the two at that?

There a plenty of GT racing fans and Conti has managed to provide those fans with the carts and the competition they want.

Not only would the fans find their favorite cars relegated to the middle of the pack, the teams would find that suddenly they went from being stars to being supporting actors. Seriously, how much coverage would ST ever get if it were the third class?

This is the same issue IMSA had when combining series, and the same issue when trying to fit WEC P1 into the ALMS (or as some used to suggest, the IMSA) field:

Teams who made their budgets by promising a certain amount of exposure would suddenly be getting drastically less. Front-row teams would suddenly be mid-pack, and the mid-pack leaders would be afterthoughts.

IMSA could sink Conti by starving the GS and ST to promote PC .... to "mirror" a series which fans would already be watching if they wanted to.

The alternative would be to keep the perennially healthy Conti series as a healthy series which offered up the product the fans seemed to want, while offering another product as well, doubling IMSA's chance to appeal to fans.

[fausto]

Oregon Team Norma M30, that'll compete in the European Le Mans Series, tested in Monza last tuesday

[Coach Ep]

The Norma was fast out of the box at Sebring and will win races this year (either in IMSA or somewhere else).

Good to see the debut of P3 in US pro racing being a hit, the series certainly has momentum, hopefully that'll translate to more P3 cars without losing MPC entries (the old Lites which imo, sound way better than the P3s so I don't want to loose that component of the mix).

For a young hotshot it still makes sense to start in MPC, win the class, move up to P3 and try to do the same before graduating to IWSC in year 3. Could make for a nice career path. In addition, the rich blokes can have fun with their "junior Le Mans" race cars.

Too bad the series won't run at Laguna Seca, that track is made for these cars.

[kevlow]

I was very pleased with the debut of P3 in the new PC series. I thought the mix with the Lites cars was good.

The only let down for me was the race length. The race was entirely too short. A minimum on two hours would be good for fans viewing and improve on the quality of racing and potentially the car count. There is not much chance at drivers bringing in sponsorship dollars from Corporations looking for advertising. With a short sprint race the entrant list may be limited to wealthy, older [and slower] gentlemen drivers who can race from their own pockets. The rest will come from come from young drivers from well funded families, regardless of their talent.

One of the things that makes the Conti Series so great is that the talent level is very high. The race is long enough that am drivers can fund a seat for a pro; or the team car bring in a sponsor and allow them to place a pro in the car. The series has a large enough following and sufficient air/media coverage that appeals to some corporate sponsors. All this makes for a high quality product that appeals to drivers/teams/fans/ and sponsors.

I would love to see the same for the Prototype Challenge Series. The cars were great. A couple of drivers were really good. They would need to attract young, funded drivers from the open wheel ladder to make it a good field. Otherwise they need to have additional stints for pro drivers. Also the following will be good for the races that are married up with the WeatherTech but I don't believe that they can sustain the following to interest of Corporate sponsors at the independent races.

As a race fan, I would love to see this as a three or four hour race.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

I never watched Proto challenge and now I will

Win win

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I fear you may be in a bit of a minority on that. I strongly doubt the LMP3s have the sort of audience appeal many have assumed.

Sebring was the first time I was interested in the Lites race while not at the track. I was genuinely interested to see the P3's and how they would mix it up with the Lites cars. Sebring provided me with enough interest that I will continue to follow this series for the rest of the season.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

I get your point but I wasn't speaking of audience size I was speaking of personal interest

That was my point. You(and Joeb) may be interested because of this, but the two of you alone don't exactly move the needle, you know? There'd need to be quite a lot of people like you to make an audience size difference, and that's going to matter when it comes to IMSA's bottom line eventually. Sportscar racing is super volatile, even in the feeder series.

[Maelochs]

yeah, it's true ,... it is a just a few fans on a website and a bunch of teams that like P3/PC so far .... but no matter how much a certain non-canid wants to deny it, so far the response has been positive. I did not hear nor have I heard a single bad thing about the P3/PC class.

No inside info here ... I was outside, trackside, measuring response unscientifically. Response seemed positive. Sorry.