Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Mmmm, give them softer tyres!

With this type of tire they could have more puncher´s

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by Articus

I cant help but believe that this car will get deep into the 3:30-3:40 range...I checked the top speed charts and this car clocks a whopping 300km/h..Thats there or there abouts with the Rebellion Toyotas...The P1 rebellion Toyotas matter of fact...And it is supposed to corner faster than those cars.

Pretty sure the FIA/ ACO laid down the law on the DW with regards to how fast it would lap?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by aneesh99

Pretty sure the FIA/ ACO laid down the law on the DW with regards to how fast it would lap?

A lap time of 3'45 and a maxium speed of 300 kph were the benchmark set by the ACO. They'are pretty close to that, maybe will find the missing 2-3 seconds, but even if not, it's great they've come this far. A lot of people didn't expect that 12 or even 5-6 months ago.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Just for fun, I checked the 1990 grid (the first year I went). It's time today is quicker than a 787B.

Great stat! that really shows how fast cars from today are.

[Pandamasque]

I think ACO shouldn't bother with benchmarks. Even the team doesn't believe DW has a chance finishing the race, so let it go all out. Otherwise why should anyone be impressed by something that achieves mediocre results by ignoring all the regulations? They could as well bring a detuned F1 car and achieve much better laptimes with similar fuel economy. It looks like everyone joined the Nissan's PR bull*** bandwagon and fail to see that this car doesn't really prove anything, apart from being triangular not falling over.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I think ACO shouldn't bother with benchmarks. Even the team doesn't believe DW has a chance finishing the race, so let it go all out. Otherwise why should anyone be impressed by something that achieves mediocre results by ignoring all the regulations? They could as well bring a detuned F1 car and achieve much better laptimes with similar fuel economy.

A detuned F1 car wouldn't achieve nearly the same fuel economy because an F1 car has a drag coefficient worse than a brick. It's doing slowish P2 times and has 2/3 the power of a P2, which is nice, but not hugely impressive. It's doing P1 top speeds with about 60% of the horsepower which is a bit better.

Hopefully they will be very public about the fuel consumption so it will be possible to evaluate how successful it is, or not.

[canam]

I am more interested in its fuel economy.

If it can do 20 laps a stint, then it will be at the top of P2 pretty much all of the race--if it lasts. Possible to be around the privateer P1s as well.

I am not caught up about the hype. I am more interested in the fact that I have heard kids talk about the 'batmobile' and are excited to see it. They wouldn't even know what R18, HPD 03, TS0030. B08/60, BS225 etc etc are.

But the Batcar---yes.

I really hope it does well.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by canam

If it can do 20 laps a stint, then it will be at the top of P2 pretty much all of the race--if it lasts. Possible to be around the privateer P1s as well.

It may have done 20 laps per stint with a fuel tank of the same size as P2 cars, but it only has a 40-liter fuel tank as far as I'm aware. Maybe even smaller.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They're going to find 10+ seconds before the race?
Does it have more downforce than the Rebellion Toyotas then?

For reference top speed of the Rebellion was 312.2km/h (10th) and the DW was 306.9km/h (16th)

Can you guys provide a link for the top speed data please?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Can you guys provide a link for the top speed data please?

Morning session: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...actice%201.PDF; afternoon session: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...actice%202.PDF

Slower in straight line speed than the OAK LMP2 cars, but faster than all the other LMP2 cars there.

[Spyderman]

Thank you kindly!

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I think ACO shouldn't bother with benchmarks. Even the team doesn't believe DW has a chance finishing the race, so let it go all out. Otherwise why should anyone be impressed by something that achieves mediocre results by ignoring all the regulations? They could as well bring a detuned F1 car and achieve much better laptimes with similar fuel economy. It looks like everyone joined the Nissan's PR bull*** bandwagon and fail to see that this car doesn't really prove anything, apart from being triangular not falling over.

It proves you can go as fast as an LMP2 car using half the fuel economy, half the drag and going much easier on the rubber. It could prove much more but the ACO still wants this race to be about LMP1.

It's pretty obvious you dislike the car, but why? It's not taking anyone's grid slot, it's an extra entry. If it proves as little as you make it out to then you probably won't ever see it again, and it won't be a worry any longer.

[BSchneiderFan]

It seems to me that the Delta Wing is doing exactly what Garage 56 is designed for.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Just for fun, I checked the 1990 grid (the first year I went). It's time today is quicker than a 787B.

Yes, but it is about the same as the Q-times of the GT1 Corvettes and Astons of a few years ago.

DK

[canam]

If this is what pit garage 56 is supposed to do, can we have and 4 more.

I am not interested in another works Audi as the outcome (with outright pace and 4 cars is largely known). I really don't care what Toyota do--as they wont win it and wont have the pace nor experience.

I am not interested in another LMP1 car that has no chance of victory or a podium.

I am even less interested in yet another Lola, Zytek, Oreca or whatever in LMP2.

...and really, is anyone really interested in yet another Porsche or Ferrari team? They would add nothing to the spectacle.

But the BATCAR does. It is different. Adventurous. Fun. It will add hundreds of thousands to the viewing figures--if not millions. It is unique--and driven by pros.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Yes, but it is about the same as the Q-times of the GT1 Corvettes and Astons of a few years ago.

DK

And?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

It's pretty obvious you dislike the car, but why? It's not taking anyone's grid slot, it's an extra entry. If it proves as little as you make it out to then you probably won't ever see it again, and it won't be a worry any longer.

Let me clarify my position once and for all. I don't really hate the vehicle that DW is. I generally dislike bull***, that's why it seems that way. When something becomes good only because it's beaten into your head by some good PR-people, it becomes even worse in my book. I hope I won't see it next year, but it may become the car to have in ALMS 2013.

There is every reason to think that this car is vastly inferior in every respect to a hypothetical rectangular car designed and built by the same people with the same resources, even using some of the same concepts!
Ask yourselves did you REALLY need a wacky-looking vehicle to prove you that the current LMP rules severely restrict efficiency?! This is an extreme example of thinking outside the box for the sake of thinking outside the box. And I have absolutely no problem with any kind of fun quirky nonsense, as long as it's not being 'spinned' as the breakthrough in technology that seems to have already overshadowed everything else that will happen in sportscar racing this year.

PS: @canam
I'd rather see a semi-works Nissan LMP1 effort fighting with the Lolas and HPDs.

[Mt. Lynx]

I totally agree with Pandamasque about the DW.

I would like to see some financial numbers surrounding this project. I suspect these numbers are by no means low. How well could a new P2 car have been developed for the same money? Or even a P1?

[the.cosmic.pope]

I can't really disagree with what's been said. This is a class for new technology, but the DW doesn't have any new technology, it doesn't even have a new concept. It's proven that lighter weight and less drag means fast lap times and better fuel efficiency. Didn't they work that out some 50 years ago?

So it's taking an old concept and working completely outside the rule book, and is posting laps at the tail end of the LMP2 class? I can't say I'm that impressed, honestly. And now a massive deal is being out of it because Nissan turned up late to the party, slap some stickers on it and say "look how mad we are!". Is it still running an old RML Chevy IL4, or has it gotten a real Nissan unit yet?

[Pandamasque]

Marino said good things about the new 'race engine', so I think it's the Nissan lump now.

The only benefit I see in DW is that it may generate talk about lowering minimum weight limits in the regs, as well as the benefits of underbody aero as opposed to the current doctrine of having flat floors.

[Articus]

Top speeds have been around 300km/h for this car. Thats a bit higher than LMP2. Seeing as the car is also lighter by 50% the delta wing has by no means shown any of the lap time its actually capable of. Im guessing 3:30-3:40 is well within reach.

[nobster]

So far it has shown good signs, though I still dislike the car I for one am very curious about what it can do in two weeks time.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Let me clarify my position once and for all. I don't really hate the vehicle that DW is. I generally dislike bull***, that's why it seems that way. When something becomes good only because it's beaten into your head by some good PR-people, it becomes even worse in my book. I hope I won't see it next year, but it may become the car to have in ALMS 2013.

There is every reason to think that this car is vastly inferior in every respect to a hypothetical rectangular car designed and built by the same people with the same resources, even using some of the same concepts!
Ask yourselves did you REALLY need a wacky-looking vehicle to prove you that the current LMP rules severely restrict efficiency?! This is an extreme example of thinking outside the box for the sake of thinking outside the box. And I have absolutely no problem with any kind of fun quirky nonsense, as long as it's not being 'spinned' as the breakthrough in technology that seems to have already overshadowed everything else that will happen in sportscar racing this year.

PS: @canam
I'd rather see a semi-works Nissan LMP1 effort fighting with the Lolas and HPDs.

It's a demonstration project. If the problem is the LMP rules restricting efficiency (I agree with you on that), its purpose is to get people asking the question "Why do the rules have to be like that?" You can't build a rectangular car to the same concept because the concept is lower cd and lower weight than a rectangular car could achieve while developing the same downforce. It throws nearly all the weight and nearly all the downforce way to the rear of the car. A rectangular car couldn't do that.

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

I totally agree with Pandamasque about the DW.

I would like to see some financial numbers surrounding this project. I suspect these numbers are by no means low. How well could a new P2 car have been developed for the same money? Or even a P1?

Don is pretty cheap and Nissan was relatively late to the party, so my impression is they have done this on a shoestring relative to what they have accomplished. I would be interested in the numbers as well.

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

I can't really disagree with what's been said. This is a class for new technology, but the DW doesn't have any new technology, it doesn't even have a new concept. It's proven that lighter weight and less drag means fast lap times and better fuel efficiency. Didn't they work that out some 50 years ago?

So it's taking an old concept and working completely outside the rule book, and is posting laps at the tail end of the LMP2 class? I can't say I'm that impressed, honestly. And now a massive deal is being out of it because Nissan turned up late to the party, slap some stickers on it and say "look how mad we are!". Is it still running an old RML Chevy IL4, or has it gotten a real Nissan unit yet?

I've seen this argument before. If it does nothing new, why were so many people saying it would fall over the first turn, comparing it to Reliant Robin's, etc? If there was nothing new about it, why didn't anybody come up with this in the 1960's or 1970's, before sanctioning bodies got hung up with specifying virtually every detail of the cars? It appears Bowlby's out of the box thinking IS something nobody else came up with before.

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Marino said good things about the new 'race engine', so I think it's the Nissan lump now.

The only benefit I see in DW is that it may generate talk about lowering minimum weight limits in the regs, as well as the benefits of underbody aero as opposed to the current doctrine of having flat floors.

I wouldn't say it's the only benefit, but I hope it does encourage some productive discussion on why the rules are as restrictive as they are. It would be nice to get back to the days when the beginning of a racing season brought some cars that made you say "Wow!"

There have been some good articles in Racecar Engineering over the years with various designers arguing the spec era hasn't really saved money, as teams pour all their available resources toward finding smaller and smaller increments of time, and at the same time, the current way of thinking generates cars that are all clones, so they can't pass each other, leading to less interesting racing and making racing much less interesting from a technical viewpoint.

The DW is somebody finally doing something about that.

Hopefully it will encourage a change of direction on rules-making that will cause people, years from now, to look at the 1990's to 2000's as the Dark Ages of racing.

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by canam

But the BATCAR does. It is different. Adventurous. Fun. It will add hundreds of thousands to the viewing figures--if not millions. It is unique--and driven by pros.

Totally agree. With the distinct lack of real competition among the LMP1 ranks this year I think DeltaWing is the perfect sideshow. And how great is it that a race like Le Mans can offer a platform for these ideas.
People get a little silly about its supposed plans for world domination, like it was an idea hatched by Dick Dastardly himself. And yet in some ways it's everything the die hard race fans have ever wanted. Ground effect, no wings, totally free of regulation. Add to that manual shift and a little fragility demanding a certain gentle touch from the drivers. Oh, and none of this strategy involved. It'll only have to change tires twice... I guess you have to be careful what you wish for ;-)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Ask yourselves did you REALLY need a wacky-looking vehicle to prove you that the current LMP rules severely restrict efficiency?! This is an extreme example of thinking outside the box for the sake of thinking outside the box. And I have absolutely no problem with any kind of fun quirky nonsense, as long as it's not being 'spinned' as the breakthrough in technology that seems to have already overshadowed everything else that will happen in sportscar racing this year.

I don't think this is thinking outside the box for the sake of thinking outside the box. Here are the links to two very interesting articles regarding the D-Wing, written back in 2010 when it was being proposed as the new IndyCar.

The first is from Pop off Valve written by Dale Nixon

http://www.popoffvalve.com/2010/6/13...wing-interview

and the second from Motorsport written by Gordon Kirby.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no238.html