Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts

[KA]

1985 BTCC at Donington- more pics by Dan Morgan on Flickr.

Neil McGrath in the Linden/Connells car

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...7627469766722/


and Pete Hall's ICS car

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...7627469766722/

[KA]

Some early Group 1 Sanyo and Patrick Motorsport Rover pics from GroupC on Flickr

Rad Dougall's Patrick car
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...7627523378800/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...7627523378800/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800

Jeff Allam's TWR/Sanyo car
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800


The other Sanyo car- #2 with additional 'Chartered Trust Finance' sponsorship.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...7627523378800/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1632976...57627523378800

Is this Frank Sytner before his mid-season split with TWR?

IIRC Chartered Trust were always one of his sponsors on his 635 a year or two later, and it doesn't appear on Allam's car, (and neither do a couple of logos I can't make out on the bonnet of #2) or this shot of Peter Lovett who took over the other Sanyo car as #19 after Sytner left the team...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/6009110921/

[Adam43]

001 is back up for sale in three weeks http://www.classic-auctions.com/Auct...Car-33536.aspx

[chunterer]

Jeez if only I had the dough!!

Mind you i'd be on the blower to ken straight away enquiring about the cost of a pukka Grp A 3.5 engine!!

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Jeez if only I had the dough!!

Mind you i'd be on the blower to ken straight away enquiring about the cost of a pukka Grp A 3.5 engine!!

As I've always said, if I win the lottery, there's one thing I definitely want!

Good to see the post from Ken Clarke on the chassis history thread confirming that the car in the ad is 001, and that he's now got the ex-Soper Hepolite car 002. That clears up one of the big mysteries, as the Hepolite car seemed to totally disappear off the radar after 1983- now we know why, it ended up as one of the Bastos replica showcars

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Don't know about the ATN engine situation during 1984-1985, but by 1986 they were running TWR engines. Recently there was a link to a picture of the full car, but strangely wearing #23 as Kurt Thiim ran #22 during 1986.

Jesper

Yes, see what you mean...
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/my...splay/17004793

Frank de Jong has got the 1987 DTM results online now, and a thought struck me...
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...987%20DTM.html

ATN moved on to run an Alfa 75 Turbo in 1987...
http://www.mycarwallpapers.com/alfa-...o-tcc/1/37166/

...however, the Alfa apparently wasn't ready for the first round, and Thiim resorted to the Rover for the Hockenheim season-opener, finishing 8th.
The Rover had a final race appearance later in the season, driven by Peter John at the Norisring (a DNF). The Norisring result doesn't list a race number or entrant for Peter John, but as Thiim ran with #22, could this Norisring appearance be the source of the #23?

Incidentally, this post by Herbert a couple of years back says there were as many as 5 ATN Rovers
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=845

• a black car used by Armin Hahne in 1983
• two white 1984 cars raced by Olaf Manthey, Jorg van Ommen and Dieter Selzer
• a new car for Manthey in 1985, team-mate Walter Mertes running one of the 1984 cars
• and a new car built up around one of 5 lightweight factory bodyshells (guess the other 4 of these shells went to TWR?) which became Thiim's 1986 DTM mount

So we know that the 1986 car appears to still be around, but what happened to the other four?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

So we know that the 1986 car appears to still be around, but what happened to the other four?

Can't find the post but got a feeling Jesper posted something that suggested two of the earlier German cars ended up in Finland doing various saloon car races over there? They were certainly white with white wheels, much akin to the German cars...

Obviously not the 1986 champion car, but presumably they were the 1984 and 1985 cars?

[Peter Mallett]

i think the ex Hulme/Allam TT winner is running in the BSSC race at Spa on 25 September. Bert Smeets owns it.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Adam43

001 is back up for sale in three weeks http://www.classic-auctions.com/Auct...Car-33536.aspx

Originally Posted by chunterer

Jeez if only I had the dough!!

Mind you i'd be on the blower to ken straight away enquiring about the cost of a pukka Grp A 3.5 engine!!

Bidding estimate seems awfully low for a genuine TWR Group A Touring Car, even if it does need a little work.

[DPUZEY]

Bert Smeet owns chassis 19 the car from the Walkinshaw collection that Jeff Allam used to own. The 86 TT winning car is chassis 14.

[basmsport]

Indeed it's chassis 019.
And after Spa we had another podium at Zolder last weekend.
The car works well. We only have to adapt the suspension over winter to these ridiculous road legal tyres we have to run with.

Bert

[ken clarke]

...[*]and a new car built up around one of 5 lightweight factory bodyshells (guess the other 4 of these shells went to TWR?) which became Thiim's 1986 DTM mount[/LIST]So we know that the 1986 car appears to still be around, but what happened to the other four?[/QUOTE]

Where do these stories come from.

The shells were standard production shells taken off the line complete with seam sealer etc in 1983 & 84. In 1985 & 86 they were from the same production line but taken off prior to any seam sealer etc being applied. Does this make them lightweight??????????????

Why let the truth spoil a good story.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

...[*]and a new car built up around one of 5 lightweight factory bodyshells (guess the other 4 of these shells went to TWR?) which became Thiim's 1986 DTM mount[/LIST]So we know that the 1986 car appears to still be around, but what happened to the other four

Where do these stories come from.

The shells were standard production shells taken off the line complete with seam sealer etc in 1983 & 84. In 1985 & 86 they were from the same production line but taken off prior to any seam sealer etc being applied. Does this make them lightweight??????????????

Why let the truth spoil a good story.

But it's all part of the myth, mystery and magic surrounding these cars...

(Smoke & mirrors!)

[KA]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

The shells were standard production shells taken off the line complete with seam sealer etc in 1983 & 84. In 1985 & 86 they were from the same production line but taken off prior to any seam sealer etc being applied. Does this make them lightweight??????????????

Thanks for clarifying that Ken- the reference to 'light' shells came originally from a German poster who'd apparently spoken to Frieder Nickel who ran the German cars, and the meaning probably got a bit lost in translation between the German language, his original post in English and my reference to it...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=845


Re-reading the original post, it does sound more like what you described, bare shells without the seam sealer, sound insulation and other stuff that got applied as they went down the line.
Presumably these shells would be a touch lighter than the earlier cars, but hardly a lightweight shell in the sense of one using lightweight panels, holes drilled all over the place etc...

How much legal scope was there for lightening a car under Group A regs? presumably not much, given the occasions that some teams fell foul of the scrutineers for the use of lightweight panels etc (ie the M3s at Monza in '87)

Was there much in the way of exchange of parts, knowledge etc between the TWR and German programmes? IIRC, someone suggested the ATN car ran TWR engines at one point?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Can't find the post but got a feeling Jesper posted something that suggested two of the earlier German cars ended up in Finland doing various saloon car races over there? They were certainly white with white wheels, much akin to the German cars...

Obviously not the 1986 champion car, but presumably they were the 1984 and 1985 cars?

Yes, Jesper posted a link to a Youtube video of a Finnish race in 1986, featuring a pair of white Rovers- both LHD, and one with a blue stripe pattern not unlike the early German cars, and similar white-centred wheels....

http://img.fotocommunity.com/photos/15266913.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/user/Ahvenist...81/aGLeLJeSzrc

There's also an equivalent 1987 clip which features the blue-striped car
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ahvenist...95/HNWaNbG10cA


A capture from the 1987 video, and a couple of 1986 equivalents I posted earlier:
1986:



1987:

[KA]

Just looking at Richard Hilsden's Birnmingham Superprix photos, including shots from the Modsaloon race that was part of the support programme in '87, and these two shots of an obviously ex-Bastos Rover.

Pretty sure this is Brian Chatfield's car, used in Modsaloons, Thundersaloons and occasional BTCC races (note the Dunlop BTCC number background on the door), but did we ever establish which car Chatfield actually had.

White interior and Matter rollcage suggests an it's one of the cars built as a Bastos car in 85/86, rather than an older car re-used...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...in/photostream

[chunterer]

A loooong way back I posted a shot of this car, front on heading out of the wholesale market paddock. I was always convinced it was a recently built car (recent to 1987 when Chatfield was racing the car anyway!)

I would think that you're on the right tracks there KA. Did somebody think it was chassis 017 or something??

[KA]

Yes, I remember the pic- I thought I had a shot or two of it in Thiundersaloon and Modsaloon races at Donington and Silverstone, but have never been able to find them.

I won't swear, but I've got a suspicion it was one of the '86 cars, 018/019/020, as I thought the round hole in the RH 'C' pillar (a extra airjack connection I think, as well as the two on the other side) was unique to these three cars.

019 is the car that was kept in Tom's collection, then went to Jeff Allam and now Bert Smeets in Belgium, 018 is the car now with Allan Dippie in NZ (IIRC it was Allan who pointed out the extra airjack point on these three cars), and 020 was always a white (Herbie Clips/South Pacific/Watson's) car according to the chassis list Dave Puzey posted a while back.

I wonder if it's 018- I don't recall the exact history between TWR and it going to NZ?

[DPUZEY]

I think it is more likely to be chassis 020. Alan Scott, TWR engines engineer bought 018 when he went back to NZ and it would bave been in full Bastos colours.

[KA]

Thanks Dave- I'd assumed the references to 020 running in 'South Pacific', 'Herbie Clips' and 'Watsons' colours meant it was always a white car, rather than ever appearing as a Bastos car.
Most of the various ex-BTCC/ETCC/DTM cars that Chatfield had seem to have been raced in whatever colourscheme they arrived in, so I assumed his must have been a Bastos car.

Did Alan Scott buy 018 directly from TWR, or did it pass through any other ownership first?.

I'm trying to get my head around the post-TWR movements and race history of both 018 and 020, and IIRC the names of Colin Pearcy, Brian Chatfield and Kevin Eaton have been mentioned in connection with either or both of these cars earlier in the thread...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by DPUZEY

I think it is more likely to be chassis 020. Alan Scott, TWR engines engineer bought 018 when he went back to NZ and it would bave been in full Bastos colours.

Ah yes thanks Dave that's right, 018 is the one we've seen clips of racing in historic events and resides with the ex Joosen/Barclay/Marlboro #005 at the same garage I think?

[ken clarke]

I believe the Chatfield car was either 014 or 018, Alan Scott did not buy the car from TWR direct he did not return to NZ until about 1994/5. I believe it is either the Colin Piercy car, 018 or the one now owned by Brian Kershaw 014.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

I believe the Chatfield car was either 014 or 018, Alan Scott did not buy the car from TWR direct he did not return to NZ until about 1994/5. I believe it is either the Colin Piercy car, 018 or the one now owned by Brian Kershaw 014.

Thanks ken, nice to see you posting with us again!

Allan was one of the main men working on sportscar engine stuff for TWR until the mid 90's wasn't he?

Did he go back home after that ended then?

Think it's great that he decided to buy one of the Rovers that he had earlier had a big hand in the development of, nice touch.

Ken I wonder if you might be willing to share info with us anoraks during the restoration process on the Hepolite car, and are you thinking of asking Soperman to get behind the wheel when you've finished it?

[ken clarke]

Allan Scott was head of the TWR engine department. He left TWR mid 90's to return to NZ. Don Law did the work on the car prior to Allan taking it back to NZ. Allan knew Don because he was doing work on the Silk Cut Jags.

I will gladly share info with you all but have too little time to spend hours on here, plus I am pretty computer illiterate. I do not even know how to put pictures on here.

I would love Steve to drive it again. Maybe Goodwood FOS in a few years time. I am paying & I have to find the time.

[DPUZEY]

Chassis 014 was in Belgium in '87 & '88 as it did the Spa 24 hrs. So the car that Brian Chatfield raced could be 018, this asumes that 020 was still with Kaj & Eva Bornebusch in Sweden!