[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[chernaudi]

Alpine? Don't you mean Peugeot? Alpine just entered this year and have done fairly well for a new team (aside from engine issues at LM). Peugeot has been junk dating back to their return in the WEC.


Also, it should be noted that few if any personnel associated with the current Peugeot program were there back in the 2007-11 version. And even then, they usually only beat Audi in the sprint races. Only full season title Audi Sport did win against Peugeot was LMS 2008 (and Peugeot did a more than healthy amount of screwing themselves that year, magnified by Audi putting pressure on them).



And I'd bet that even now everyone who worked with Peugeot back then would trade those championships, race wins, Sebring and PLM wins for one more Le Mans win. Because that was Peugeot's #1 goal all along, and at Le Mans, they have a 80% loss record against Audi, having won only one out of five attempts. And even then for those who know about how that happened that was a rare time where Audi gave themselves the shaft with the R15 basically being designed to monster the ALMS, and was too slow in a straight line for Le Mans and had a disastrous test program. Also even at LM that year Peugeot were sort of lucky to win given that the winning car had a clutch that was on the verge of failing and both the first and second place cars also had brake issues.


Peugeot may've been the first to fully adopt the concept of trying to build a F1 car for Le Mans (Audi themselves did incorporate some, but not much of that, into the R10 already though, and it was Audi who adopted the run at almost qualifying speed for the whole race at LM back when the R8 showed up in 2000), but it bit them more often than not where it counted for them the most.


But even the failure of 2008 and the disaster that 2010 turned out to be for Peugeot looks favorable compared to the current program. At least in '08 Peugeot won most of the battles against Audi (though still lost the war at LM and the LMS), and Peugeot did just fine everywhere else other than LM. But even then they'd still trade all that other success for another LM win or two.


And in fairness, as an overall observation, the WEC as a world championship is still overshadowed by the LM24. The ALMS never had that issue with Sebring and Petit Le Mans, F1 doesn't have it with Monaco, NASCAR doesn't have that with the Daytona 500, the closest is Indy Car with the Indy 500 vs the season title.


And as to the main issue in this thread: no, I don't think BOP will be of much help to Peugeot. The ACO and FIA will have to bend over backwards with BOP to get the 9X8 anywhere near competitive as far as that car being any further up the pecking order than mid pack. Only so much that performance balancing or rules breaks can do with a car that's inherently flawed.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Alpine? Don't you mean Peugeot? Alpine just entered this year and have done fairly well for a new team (aside from engine issues at LM).

Not only that, they won at Sebring and Monza and finished 2nd in the drivers championship in 2022. That was with a grandfathered LMP1 but it doesn't take away anything from their achievement, especially since that Oreca wasn't BOPed too kindly, in part due to low fuel capacity.

[flatlandsman]

I am fairly sure the lad meant Peugeot¬!!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I am fairly sure the lad meant Peugeot¬!!

Hard for a foreigner to spot the difference between two baguette teams! One is baguette camembert beurre, the other baguette saucisson-cornichons!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Articus

I suspect that the ACO will have to make a massive correction to the Cadillac BOP next year after Jota shows them how poor the Ganassi team was.

Said it in another thread, but JOTA is going to be an absolute menace and force to be reckoned with next year in that caddy. Just waiting to see the driver lineup come together.

Originally Posted by TF110

This isn't a huge swing but Toyota hasn't been this heavy since the beginning of the season. Peugeot gets more breaks but will it mean anything? Porsche gets a little better with Alpine, Cadillac and BMW.

I have something I've been wanting to say about this, but I'll wait till after the race

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Matador

Said it in another thread, but JOTA is going to be an absolute menace and force to be reckoned with next year in that caddy. Just waiting to see the driver lineup come together.

Maybe yes, maybe no. They didn't have a good run today with their Porsches.

Originally Posted by Matador

I have something I've been wanting to say about this, but I'll wait till after the race

Wonder what that is so it has to wait until Toyota secures another 1-2

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Maybe yes, maybe no. They didn't have a good run today with their Porsches.

Wonder what that is so it has to wait until Toyota secures another 1-2

It might take JOTA some time to get it right, but I'm confident they will get up to speed quickly.

And Wouldn't want to jinx that now would I? Speaking of 1-2s, looking back at it, 7 of the 9 times they've won in Fuji were 1-2 finishes and one of those two times they only had 1 car in the fight.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Matador

I have something I've been wanting to say about this, but I'll wait till after the race

I think I know what you wanted to say, because I came here to say it too, but I'll resist for now. I don't want to play spoiler...

I can barely keep my mouth shut

[TF110]

Based on the Fuji performances, I think the reactionary bop adjustments from COTA weren't great. I think they should leave the bop alone for 2 races and see how it plays out. This race by race bop is something that shouldn't happen imo. I think cars have strengths and weaknesses and certain tracks will favor certain cars.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Articus

I think I know what you wanted to say, because I came here to say it too, but I'll resist for now. I don't want to play spoiler...

I can barely keep my mouth shut

Right. So I was going to say this race is either going to be one of two things; A Toyota 1-2 (just this year with most hypercars on the lead lap) or Porsche winning it. Toyota actually ran 10kg heavier last year and finished 1-2 a lap ahead of 4th place. Granted, they had way less power than last year but it goes to show how far the field has come I think.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by TF110

Based on the Fuji performances, I think the reactionary bop adjustments from COTA weren't great. I think they should leave the bop alone for 2 races and see how it plays out. This race by race bop is something that shouldn't happen imo. I think cars have strengths and weaknesses and certain tracks will favor certain cars.

Agreed. This is why it feels like success ballast and Ferrari International Assistance with Balance of Porsche.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Matador

Agreed. This is why it feels like success ballast and Ferrari International Assistance with Balance of Porsche.

Alpine and Cadillac were definitely the fastest cars in Fuji. They just had too many problems and couldn't get a clean consistent run. The 36 Alpine didn't make hyperpole. The 35 got spun at the start. Milesi had a penalty for a collision and his teammates were slower than him. The Cadillac did Cadillac things after leading the start.

[TF110]

I think certain cars might be in need of bop help, but others should be left alone. If Toyota can use their tires better, that's not something bop should make worse. They should leave Toyota Porsche and Ferrari alone for the most part. Get the others closer to their level. Alpine is getting better, Cadillac usually is there. That leaves Peugeot and Lamborghini who have bigger problems with their car, nothing bop can easily fix.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Matador

Agreed. This is why it feels like success ballast and Ferrari International Assistance with Balance of Porsche.

Ok, so when Toyota had hillarious advantage over privateers, grandfathered LMP1 or newcomer manufacturers, then BOP was fine, right? Anyway, let's take a look who had the best car:

• Qatar - BoPorsche
• Imola - FIArrari (by a mile)
• Spa - BoPorsche
• Le Mans - Sandyota
• Brazil - Sandyota (by a mile)
• COTA - Sandyota
• Fuji - Crashdillac

I don't see anything fixed for a specific manufacturer. Also it's not ACO's fault that Toyota sandbagged hard pre-LM, spun at LM giving Nielsen a big break, got a penalty at COTA and did a dumb driving fest at their home race. It is what it is.

[flatlandsman]

I think Jota running the car will eventually sort Caddy issues which I think are often driver related!! Sadly.

You cannot blame Toyota for being able to run their car better on softer tyres, that is a massive engineering achievement, and they have been endlessly Bop'd all year really.

Ferrari have imploded a little since LM I feel yes 83 won a race but Fuji was not great at all, and theya re now havinbg more reliabiol;ity issues

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think Jota running the car will eventually sort Caddy issues which I think are often driver related!! Sadly.

Bamber stays with the team

[Articus]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think Jota running the car will eventually sort Caddy issues which I think are often driver related!! Sadly.

You cannot blame Toyota for being able to run their car better on softer tyres, that is a massive engineering achievement, and they have been endlessly Bop'd all year really.

Ferrari have imploded a little since LM I feel yes 83 won a race but Fuji was not great at all, and theya re now havinbg more reliabiol;ity issues

Ferrari appears to suffer on high altitude tracks (Sao Poalo and Fuji). It's related to how increasing the brake scoop openings for the thin air reduces the floor downforce. This was what they attempted to correct with the evo updates. It hasn't worked as well as they hoped.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think certain cars might be in need of bop help, but others should be left alone. If Toyota can use their tires better, that's not something bop should make worse. They should leave Toyota Porsche and Ferrari alone for the most part. Get the others closer to their level. Alpine is getting better, Cadillac usually is there. That leaves Peugeot and Lamborghini who have bigger problems with their car, nothing bop can easily fix.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think Jota running the car will eventually sort Caddy issues which I think are often driver related!! Sadly.

You cannot blame Toyota for being able to run their car better on softer tyres, that is a massive engineering achievement, and they have been endlessly Bop'd all year really.

Ferrari have imploded a little since LM I feel yes 83 won a race but Fuji was not great at all, and theya re now havinbg more reliabiol;ity issues

The "woe is me" Toyota is tiring. The BOP is not perfect but the ACO tries their best. Toyota had a chance to finish on the podium in Fuji with both cars but they imploded as a team. When it was the other way around and the 6 Porsche didn't have the pace, they managed to always score top 4 results by minimizing mistakes and driving consistently. People want to blame the BOP but Toyota had a winning opportunity at Le Mans and threw it away with Lopez. They should have finished 1-2 in Brazil but threw it away with unreliability. They had winning opportunity in COTA but threw it away with penalty. They had podium opportunity in Fuji but again threw it away by mistakes from the drivers.

Toyota had a chance to win the championship, they just weren't consistent enough. The BOP has been more than fair across the entire season. Both Ferrari and Toyota simply failed to execute damage limitation on the tracks where they were weak. Porsche did. This championship has been more than fair to the 3 manufacturers across the entire season. Just because Toyota isn't the fastest car in 1 race doesn't mean there is something "Wrong".

[TF110]

I don't see the "woe is me" for Toyota here. I think people see the bop as the only consistent thing here, consistently flawed. In actuality it's looking more like success handicaps. Porsche is 'consistent'? Imo they're consistent in getting a favorable bop relative to their main competition. Throughout the season they have had the pace close to Ferrari and Toyota yet they've always been at or above 505kw and the highest weight was 1053 kg, which was Toyota's lowest weight. What surprises me is that Fuji was arguably Porsche's best race last year but the bop decision was to let them run with 512kw (tied highest of the year) while Ferrari and Toyota were both at their lowest power of the year.

[flatlandsman]

I am not too sure how this chap got that sense from sop many posts, but whatever!!

It is abundantly clear that the Toyota is the quickest car out there, not necessarily from outright pace but because in races over nearly two years now it has been able make softer tyres last longer and even at times run a softer compound than others and still make it work.

It reminds of the Newey/Vettel years when Seb could do this as the car was so good it could run a crazy pace on softer tyres and pull huge gaps simply by being able to lap quicker and use the tyre the same.

ACO cannot really engineer this away, they can only do it with BoP, which they have done consistently and duh, it doesn't work because that only affects weight and power really. That actually at times might make it easier lol!

I think other cars are quicker over a lap, on new tyres and at other times. But the ACO cannot un-engineer a very well designed and built car. The others clearly know as this is where the rules are pushing teams, it is the ability to use your tyres for as long as you can to make them be good over a double stint if you can.

Look how much Ferrari dropped on a double late on, how slow Nielsen was on them, you rarely see that from Toyota drivers. This is simply better car design, and you cannot penalise them for that with a penalty that affects mainly weight and power.

It is a tough call for the ACO I admit, they dont want a dominant package, and they are doing well to make sure it is not dominant. This attracts the likes of Aston and Hyundai obviously I would say they perhaps would have been more reticent about coming had Toyota dominated the last two years utterly.

But fundamentally Toyota messed upl they dont do it often, but push them and they will, this is how you get them I think!! You can get at Buemi, you can get aty Kamui, Hirakawa is a weak link, thuis is tough stuff but has to be done if you can!!

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't see the "woe is me" for Toyota here. I think people see the bop as the only consistent thing here, consistently flawed. In actuality it's looking more like success handicaps. Porsche is 'consistent'? Imo they're consistent in getting a favorable bop relative to their main competition. Throughout the season they have had the pace close to Ferrari and Toyota yet they've always been at or above 505kw and the highest weight was 1053 kg, which was Toyota's lowest weight. What surprises me is that Fuji was arguably Porsche's best race last year but the bop decision was to let them run with 512kw (tied highest of the year) while Ferrari and Toyota were both at their lowest power of the year.

There hasn't been anything wrong with the BOP on average so there's actually no reason to complain at all. You say there is no "woe is me", and then get right back into the "woe is me". Don't look at single races. Look across the entire season on average. Toyota isn't losing the championships because of BOP. They are losing them because of their own mistakes in Le Mans, Sao Paolo, COTA, and Fuji. You're preoccupied with Fuji BOP but fail to see the bigger picture. The BOP gave everyone a chance across the season.

Originally Posted by TF110

Porsche is 'consistent'? Imo they're consistent in getting a favorable bop relative to their main competition. Throughout the season they have had the pace close to Ferrari and Toyota yet they've always been at or above 505kw and the highest weight was 1053 kg, which was Toyota's lowest weight. What surprises me is that Fuji was arguably Porsche's best race last year but the bop decision was to let them run with 512kw (tied highest of the year) while Ferrari and Toyota were both at their lowest power of the year.

They are consistent because the 6 car made the fewest mistakes and Toyota made a lot of them. Ranting about BOP weight and power figures makes no sense. The Porsche is an LMDh car. The Toyota is an LMH car. The LMH cars have a higher performance ceiling by virtue of the regulations. There's no championship earned for choosing LMH. It's a BOP formula. If you don't like BOP, you are entitled to your opinion. It's been clear all year that you have a problem when Toyota can't blow everyone away which is fundamentally at odds with the concept of a BOP formula. It doesn't matter how fast your car is. Its a BOP formula. That's why a big fat front engined Toyota saloon car can compete with a mid engined Ferrari 296 in the GT3 category.

[chernaudi]

IMO, there's no perfect solution. BOP is flawed because it's carried out by humans looking at data. Granted, the race to race changes (which reminds me of the ALMS in 2006 in LMP1 and GT1) does smack of feeling like success ballast like what JGTC/Super GT uses and such, instead of setting a base BOP, accepting that certain cars may do better than others at some tracks, and if a change has to be made, make them in a window mid season.


IMO, constantly changing BOP from race to race means either, one, you don't have it right and messed up as a sanctioning body, or two, you're trying to manipulate things to make for closer racing. NASCAR was/is infamous for this due to constant rules changes in season (prior to the common template cars and the COT/Gen 6/Gen 7 cars) and in more recent times being accused of throwing cautions to bunch up the field (also a reason for the stage racing of the past several years) to produce more exciting racing.


For that, both fans and the sanctioning bodies have to understand that some races will be blow outs, some will be ultra exciting, most will be between the two extremes.


Of course, one can say just kill off BOP. One, that genie got let out of the bottle long ago, and isn't going back in unless you go down the road of NASCAR or Indy Car type quasi-spec racing. And two, you'd risk the budgets getting out of control for little return on investment for the sanctioning body/promoters.



Such spending killed the original FIA GT1 class in the FIA GT Championship, it lead (as well as the manufacturer exodus to F1 at the time) LMP900/LMGTP becoming an Audi and Bentley playground when VAG got left with the check. Same also happened when Peugeot pulled out until Toyota joined Audi in the WEC. Same happened (even with some BOP/EOT) in 2016/17 when Audi and Porsche pulled out due to rising costs and lack of return on investment. Though as far as the WEC went, the fact that the whole season was overshadowed by Le Mans (which itself is almost an all or nothing affair) didn't help matters there (or probably any other time).


So, I do have to ask, what do we collectively want? One, maybe two teams or manufacturers dominating most of the time? BOP being almost seemingly applied as a success ballast formula? It be set and only changed 1-2 times a year?



No matter what, I do know that no one here or elsewhere will agree with whatever the sanctioning body, be it the ACO, IMSA or the FIA, decide. I know that there's probably some that won't agree with ANY of the options I provided above.


And I know in general that people don't want the Audi Sport steamroller that happened in the ALMS and Le Mans from 2000-2006 when they were the only factory/OEM backed team, though the '03-'05 ALMS seasons and their close racing in the sprint races did provide the genesis of IMSA and the ACO looking at BOP and other measures to try and develop/encourage close racing. IMO, those seasons and such (as well as the ALMS in '07 and '08 as far as the Audis vs the factory backed LMP2 cars, and of course Le Mans '11) spoiled us collectively as far as close racing up front in the LM-type sportscar scene. And hence various attempts to emulate that without going down the spec (NASCAR, Indy Car, Grand Am) route.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

So, I do have to ask, what do we collectively want? One, maybe two teams or manufacturers dominating most of the time? BOP being almost seemingly applied as a success ballast formula? It be set and only changed 1-2 times a year?

If you are a fan of "Racing" then it won't matter how BOP is used as long as there is actually a competitive race to watch, no matter the manufacturers who are competing for the win on a given weekend. I watch the 24 hours of Spa every year. I am not interested in any specific manufacturer. I just like seeing a race. I don't pay attention to their championship rankings or which manufacturers are griping about the BOP.


If you become a fan of a specific manufacturer, that is when the gripes tend to begin. There has been a lot of chip on shoulder style remarks with people who feel Toyota shouldn't be slowed because they might have the fastest car inherently. Well it's a BOP formula and Toyota would have pulled out if they didn't accept it. Toyota also benefits from it in the GT3 category where their Lexus product competes with cars that would drive circles around it in an uncompensated formula.

[Steve McQ]

GT3 is a Pro-Am formula, so it is customer racing. It is nothing more than club racing at the world level. You can not compare that kind of racing with LMH/LMdH, works cars with works drivers built only to go faster and more efficiently than the others, following a technical set of rules that does not exist in GT3.
BoP would never be necessary if the technical and sporting regulations where properly written. BoP has never stopped costs from increasing either.

[chernaudi]

And I feel here that I should make it clear that I became a big fan of sportscar racing in the late 1990s and the early 2000s. I initially pulled for Panoz because they ran Ford engines in the Esperante GTR and the LMP1 Roadster. Why? Because I was also a NASCAR fan at the time, I was raised in a predominantly Ford household, and my father and uncle had dealings over the years with the likes of Jack Roush and Robert Yates.


However, when Panoz shifted focus to GT2 and pretty much killed off the LMP program, I gravitated to Audi because of Champion Racing and they being the only American based team running up front in LMP900 and their quest to be the first American based team to win Le Mans overall since 1967 when Ford and Shelby American did it (Champion accomplished that in 2005).


So I stayed with Audi until they pulled out of LMP1 in 2016. Since then I've had no major allegiance to any major OEM in LMP1/DPI/LMH/GTP.



However, coming in from that time, I also accepted that, one, in sportscar racing, the cars are the stars, unlike say NASCAR or Indy Car where the focus is on the drivers or individual teams. And two, someone is always going to be the best, and like in NASCAR and elsewhere, someone sets the bar, and as it has been said, if you want to be the man, you gotta beat the man. And sometimes, you gotta accept that you're not good enough, be it due to drivers, team, car and/or resources, and there's three other classes you could run in, or you had to step up your game.


I'm not a fan of that aspect of BOP. IMO, it does penalize teams or manufacturers for building a better mouse trap, and takes away that incentive. Also, up until this year, most of the reason why Toyota were dominant was things that BOP couldn't address--experience, building a car that was easy on it's tires, etc.


It's again, like in the ALMS in '06 when LMP1 privateer teams were given IMO insane breaks to compete against the Audi R10s that year. Audi had a new car, built to the new rules (not a grandfathered, by that time 6 year old R8) and a full factory team running it instead of a semi-factory privateer outfit (though that's where Champion came from for the R10 program).


Could a gasoline powered car compete against the R10 back then? Given how well Toyota managed with a gasoline engine against them in '12 and '13 once they sorted out their cars, yes (both Audi and Toyota were running hybrids by then). But comparing factory teams vs privateers in prototype classes back then was like comparing apples to oranges in terms of capabilities. Same was also happening in LMP2 when Porsche and Penske got in with a full factory team staffed chiefly by Porsche factory drives in a class developed for privateer teams focused around gentleman drivers. Things only got worse there for private teams when Acura came in with all pro driver lineups.



But fast-forwarding to today, in LMH and GTP, you have basically factory or quasi-factory teams, and it was intended to be a BOP formula. But IMO, for BOP, the ACO and FIA shouldn't be changing it every race like IMSA did in LMP1 and GT1 in '06, where it was basically success ballast in how it was implemented. At least be transparent that you're using BOP to make for close racing and you're adapting it based on tracks and data reflected in race results and such.


But then again, I'm not a fan from that standpoint of convoluted racing. I'm not a fan of spec racing, and I can accept that some races (even in spec series) will be close, some will be blowouts, some will be in between.



IMO, the manufacturers and teams don't help, either. Because though they may decry BOP and such, it's a reason they do commit because of it cutting costs and the whole instant gratification thing that's so prevalent in everything today. It's the politicking and bickering that's a big turn off for me when it comes to modern application of BOP and such, though the results being somewhat convoluted isn't a big help, either.